Which AR?

[Klusterbuck]

So I've got the black gun bug.......

So which one is it?

Colt
Bushmaster
Olympic Arms
Stag / Smith and Wesson
Rock River


I'm wanting something tacticool....

Flat top, folding sights + holo sight
pic rails
collapsable stock

What are you all shooting?

[Fox]

Been using AR's for a long time. I doubt you can do better than a BM or RRA. Both are excellent. Do a quick search for AR's. Jwrussell did an excellent synopsis for newbies just a few months ago. Should be right in this forum. Ask any questions you wish. I just do not want to type all that stuff out. . .:smile:

ETA: Here (http://www.botl.org/community/forums/showthread.php?t=1834) is the other AR thread. Lots of good information here.

[N2Advnture]

I have (2) Colt "pre-bans" but they are pricey in comparison. BM, RR or OA are probably less expensive for the same features.

~Mark

[Black Dog]

I still have my heart set on a Wilson Combat UT-15 with Olive Drab Armor-Tuff finish. Way to much money but I just gotta have it. Someday I hope.

[Ratbert]

I have a Smith & Wesson M&P15T that I love. I was thinking about building one and still want to one of these days, but I couldn't be happier with the Smith.

It has a free-floating barrel and railed forend, collapsible stock and flat top with sweet BUIS. I think that they used to use the Troy sights, but these are marked Smith & Wesson. If I'm not mistaken, S&W is building their own AR now, as opposed to having Stag components...not sure about that though.

No optics yet, but I like the view through the Eotech.

Question for others who've shot an AR for some time...mine has 16" barrel with 1/9 twist...what's the heaviest round that will perform well out of that barrel? I've only shot 55 gr., but can I go up to 60 gr. without losing too much velocity or accuracy? I'm guessing that 70 is too heavy based on some earlier advice from Fox, right?

[Fox]

I have a Smith & Wesson M&P15T that I love. I was thinking about building one and still want to one of these days, but I couldn't be happier with the Smith.

It has a free-floating barrel and railed forend, collapsible stock and flat top with sweet BUIS. I think that they used to use the Troy sights, but these are marked Smith & Wesson. If I'm not mistaken, S&W is building their own AR now, as opposed to having Stag components...not sure about that though.

No optics yet, but I like the view through the Eotech.

Question for others who've shot an AR for some time...mine has 16" barrel with 1/9 twist...what's the heaviest round that will perform well out of that barrel? I've only shot 55 gr., but can I go up to 60 gr. without losing too much velocity or accuracy? I'm guessing that 70 is too heavy based on some earlier advice from Fox, right?

You can go to 62 grain with no problems at all. Keep in mind that the standard military round is currently the M855 62 grain penetrator, although the military uses a 1 x 7" twist. Most M4's in the Sandbox are 14.5" - 16" and they seem to take care of the bad guys just fine. Some 1 x 9" rifles will stabilize bullets up to 69 grains (can be OTM), others will not. The only way you will know for sure is to try the heavier bullets, preferably out to 200 yards. You will see keyholing if the bullets are starting to yaw and just plain lousy groups with general instability.

Good reports are coming in using the OTM (open tipped match) bullets in 75 and 77 grain. To stabilize those bullets you will need 1 x 8" or 1 x 7". They are much lower velocity, but the energy imparted is impressive from the reports I have read. Velocity is not always the most important, unless you are relying on bullet fragmentation, the hallmark of 55 & 62 grain bullets. For that, you need something in the neighborhood of 2,700 fps at the POI for reliable breakup. In a carbine that will be ~135 yards - ~175 yards, roughly. If I was using 75 and 77 grain bullets, I would go to an 18" - 20" barrel in an SPR type rifle.

[Ratbert]

Thanks for the advice...I'll pick up several different ammo loads and just try them out, examining the targets for keyholing, etc. and go from there.

From a defensive standpoint, do you count on FMJ rounds, or go for lighter bullets with fragmentation, like the Hornady TAP ammo? Straight to the point, if I'm going up against a bad guy using .223, do I want to punch a hole straight through him, or go for maximum breakup?

[Fox]

Thanks for the advice...I'll pick up several different ammo loads and just try them out, examining the targets for keyholing, etc. and go from there.

From a defensive standpoint, do you count on FMJ rounds, or go for lighter bullets with fragmentation, like the Hornady TAP ammo? Straight to the point, if I'm going up against a bad guy using .223, do I want to punch a hole straight through him, or go for maximum breakup?


Fragmentation is good. . .:smile: Keep in mind that FMJ in a .223 is not the same as with other calibers. The round was designed to fragment. If the speed is right you might punch right through him, but the wound will be devastating. 55 grain FMJ rounds, called by the military, M193, fragment superbly. The essential variable for fragmentation is velocity. This is where the ~2,700 fps comes into play. Fragmentation and wound channels are still impressive with the round traveling at ~2,600. M193 will come out of a 16" barrel at close to 3,050 as chronographed from my barrel. M855 (62 grain penetrator) leaves the muzzle at ~2,925. Of course, both of these depend a bit upon rifle and conditions. I am comfortable stating that M193 will be devastating at ~125 - 150 yards and M855 up to ~100 yards. That should be well inside of your self defense perimeter. . .:wink:

All ammunition is expensive right now and the days of inexpensive surplus are behind us. Get some Black Hills in several weights and play with it and find the best option for your perceived need. I would never feel outgunned out to the ranges mentioned, unless they had good cover, then it is time for the FAL. . .:grin:

Here (http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm) is a superb link regarding terminal performance for AR rounds and well worth the time it takes to read.

[CWS]

You guys are starting to scare me. :eyequiver

[Fox]

You guys are starting to scare me. :eyequiver

Not to worry, Chuck. . .Just chalk this up to the varied backgrounds of the Brotherhood. . .:headroll: Or, as my wife would say, my misguided childhood and military time. . .:rolling:

[CWS]

Not to worry, Chuck. . .Just chalk this up to the varied backgrounds of the Brotherhood. . .:headroll: Or, as my wife would say, my misguided childhood and military time. . .:rolling:

In my way younger days, a long, long time ago when I worked for the government, I carried but nothing as sophisticated as we have now. When my daughter told me she planned to buy a hand gun, I was really at a loss as to what to tell her to buy. I did get her set up with some classes to learn about weapons, their handling and how to shoot.

Mostly a bird hunter now.

[Ratbert]

That should be well inside of your self defense perimeter. . .:wink:

Yup! :yes:

Excellent link to the Ammo Oracle...that one's bookmarked for sure now!

Thanks, as always!

(sorry to sorta hijack Klusterbuck's original question :hanghead:)

[Jwrussell]

So I've got the black gun bug.......

So which one is it?

Colt
Bushmaster
Olympic Arms
Stag / Smith and Wesson
Rock River


I'm wanting something tacticool....

Flat top, folding sights + holo sight
pic rails
collapsable stock

What are you all shooting?

S&W M&P15T, you can't go wrong. For the pricing I've seen it's extremely hard to beat. Good weapon with all the extra goodies (flip up BUIS and railed forend) at a good price. Have a buddy in the office that picked one up and I really did like it. Beyond that, you can't go wrong with RRA. Bushmaster has a great following as well, but I've never fired one. Colts are overpriced just because they are Colts.

Do a search, we've had a number of conversations on this topic. Good luck and have fun!:stretchgr

[Ratbert]

I have to agree with Jason on the value of the Smith M&P15T. If you pick up a bare bones model, (any make) add the 6 position stock, railed forend and high quality flip-up BUIS, then you're spending right at, or above, what you'll pay for the S&W off the shelf. I have been very pleased with mine.

Here's a picture of mine, along with another nice-shooting M&P, the full size 9mm, with 17 round mag. Great handgun that points well and shoots beautifully.

At the risk of completely highjacking this thread, here's a photo of maybe my favorite Smith & Wesson, a model 617 .22LR, with 4" barrel and 10 round cylinder. It's wearing custom rosewood stocks that I picked up off of eBay. Don't know if they'll still sell grips and stocks or not anymore though, what with their new anti-gun sale policy and all.

Anyway, Klusterbuck...research the heck out of the available ARs out there and have fun!

[tazbigdog]

Had a Colt, loved it.

[GuyMcBeerdrinker]

help me understand why someone would need an ar-15? no, am I'm not anti-gun. just curious, in fact, I'm even entertaining the idea of picking up one for myself.

[Ratbert]

help me understand why someone would need an ar-15?

For me, it's not a matter of need, it's more a matter of I enjoy shooting different guns and the AR is by far the most fun. I have shotguns for home defense and handguns for both defense and for plinking in the woods, but the AR is just a different animal.

That being said, if a situation arose where society's restraints were loosed and people begin to prey upon one another (LA riots, Katrina aftermath, etc.) then I'd feel better protecting myself and my family with a weapon like the AR15...it's lightweight, rugged, shoots well, and accepts high capacity magazines.

I'm not one of those folks who think that the end of the world is right around the corner and I don't daydream about "I Am Legend" scenarios, but recent events have shown me what human predators are capable of when the lights go out. Because of that, I want a good weapon close at hand and the AR fits the bill.

And, like I said...it's fun to shoot!

[GuyMcBeerdrinker]

yeah, I was thinking of getting one for the "cool factor" and to spice up the gun collection.

any ideas on what sort of monkey dance is involved in order to purchase one? I live in texas. is there a registration process I have to go to, or can I simply march into my neighborhood gun store and slap down the plastic and fill out the criminal check form?

[Fox]

. . .snip. . .help me understand why someone would need an ar-15?. . .snip. . .

Need and want can be mutually exclusive when it comes to firearms. The term need evokes an attitude that ownership of arms must have some sort of societal approval, one that is deemed politically correct and acceptable by popular accord. Ownership of arms is a right and need may never enter the equation. . .:peace:

Ratbert put it well. Some other great reasons: just because you can, extremely accurate when properly tuned, very low recoil, fast follow-up shots, incredible customization options, superb hunting round for some game and predators, and inexpensive to shoot (relatively speaking these days).

Guy, since you live in a free state you can even go class III if you have the coin. . .:glassesgr Unless Texas has a state waiting period, you should be able to walk in with the plastic, get the NICS check and walk out with the product. There are no federal restricitions for long guns if it is purchased without your state of residence and you are a citizen. Or, if you prefer to remain anonymous and your state allows it, look for private sales. . .:smile:

[Ratbert]

Guy, since you live in a free state you can even go class III if you have the coin. . .:glassesgr Unless Texas has a state waiting period, you should be able to walk in with the plastic, get the NICS check and walk out with the product. There are no federal restricitions for long guns if it is purchased without your state of residence and you are a citizen. Or, if you prefer to remain anonymous and your state allows it, look for private sales. . .:smile:

Exactly...it's just a rifle, albeit a black one. Takes 10 minutes in Georgia, and that's if the background check system is slow.

I didn't know that you lived in Texas...dude, with all of the armadillos and coyotes you must have running around, you've got to have an AR15 platform rifle. You're living in a target-rich environment with all of those varmints! :rifleaim:

[tazbigdog]

help me understand why someone would need an ar-15? no, am I'm not anti-gun. just curious, in fact, I'm even entertaining the idea of picking up one for myself.

For me, I needed one when I was in LE. Dropping in on dope patches, poaching camps, etc., something more than a shotgun was needed.

:yes:

[GuyMcBeerdrinker]

tell me about noveske

[Fox]

tell me about noveske

Guy, Noveske makes some of the best stuff around. Check out his site, here (http://www.noveskerifleworks.com/) and this Defense Review (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=776) article.

[GuyMcBeerdrinker]

would they be better than a colt?

[Fox]

would they be better than a colt?

Yes. Most of the custom makers pay much more attention to detail whereas Colt is a production rifle. Colt is a very fine rifle and their quality is excellent, but your options are limited. However, unless you are looking for a lot of customization for your initial rifle, a Noveske or any other custom build would be overkill. "Better" may not be the best choice of words. I do not know who makes the lowers for Noveske and it does not state the maker on his site. Bottom line: if coin is not an option, then get something from Noveske or one of the other builders. There are several good ones. Remember that a customized rifle will likely cost you 2 - 3 times what a stock Colt will cost.

[Texas Cop]

I recently bought a Bustmaster M4 ORC (Optics Ready Carbine [flat-top, no sights]) for a great price (700). If you are planning on adding an Eotech anyways, that might be the way to go. However, as has been said the new S/W weapon comes with the flat-top, BUIS, and railed front end, however, I'm not sure of the cost on those. On the Bushmaster I started with the base price of $700, added the flip up BUIS for another $80, and a Knights RAIS for another $60, so for $840 I got a pretty sweet setup. So compare that with the S/W and go from there. I don't have any operational or range experience with the S/W, but I have used the BM and FN M4s on range and field.


drew

[schuellk]

Another reason for getting one, there are a lot of great competitions available for this style of rifle. Including nationals held at Camp Perry.

I'm seriously looking at getting myself one of these in the near future and picking up the M-1Garand again as well for competition.