How many do you carry?

[Sancho Panza]

I carry 'bout 3, all the time:

Beretta 92FS

Springfield Armory M1911A1 (they are so thin)

&

FEG Model SMC 918

@ home I keep my M1A & AR's handy...sure, they're loaded...to paraphrase John Wayne "a gun that's not loaded is good for nothing."

[fuente]

none. ever.

[Sancho Panza]

just one of many reasons I left California

[Jwrussell]

Right now, none. When and if I ever do? Can't imagine I'd be carrying more than one.

[Sancho Panza]

only time I don't is on the Air Base; they kinda frown on that

[Black Dog]

Only one most times, depending on mode of dress and conditions: Either Glock 26, Glock 19, Para Ordnance CCW .45 or Para Ordnance TacFour .45. Also, at least one spare magazine.
If my clothing or the situation don't lend themselves to IWB concealment I carry a little North American Arms .22mag mini-revolver.
In the car, no matter what I'm carrying IWB I will also generally have the G26 readily available in the console.
I'm getting ready to mount a Kydex holster for the G26 on the side of the console of my car, down near my right Knee. The interior of the car is black, so the G26 and the black Kydex holster are nearly invisible down there.

[Jwrussell]

I'd be careful about that bro'. I don't know WV's laws on the matter, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fly in FL.

[fuente]

I'm curious about something: For those of you that do carry weapons, is it because you are into the hobby, or because you are generally concerned that the areas you live in or frequent are so dangerous that carrying a weapon is warranted?

Not insulting anyone, just trying to comprehend why someone would need to mount a weapon in their car and carry a Glock under their trenchcoat...

[Wasch_24]

I am wondering sort of the same thing.

Why or when do you see yourself ever actually using it?

What would be the consequences/ramifications?

Even if you have a permit, I would feel a little uncomfortable hanging around with you. Is that understandable?

[Sancho Panza]

I'm curious about something: For those of you that do carry weapons, is it because you are into the hobby, or because you are generally concerned that the areas you live in or frequent are so dangerous that carrying a weapon is warranted?

Yes, Yes & Yes

Not insulting anyone, just trying to comprehend why someone would need to mount a weapon in their car and carry a Glock under their trenchcoat...

there are lots of reasons, one being if you handled large amounts of cash, something I no longer do...

another would be because it's my God given, Constitutionally defined right...btw, there are no weapons "mounted" in my car & I don't carry a Glock

[fuente]

another would be because it's my God given, Constitutionally defined right...btw, there are no weapons "mounted" in my car & I don't carry a Glock

That wasn't mean for you Sancho.

I guess we live in different worlds.

[tedski]

I can understand reasons for carrying a sidearm ... but why more than one?

SP ... have you ever had to use your weapons in self-defense?

[Sancho Panza]

I am wondering sort of the same thing.

Why or when do you see yourself ever actually using it?

IF I'm ever in fear for my life or limb, or the life of others. Also in protection of my property, that is auto & home.

[QUOTE=Wasch_24]What would be the consequences/ramifications?

I'd stop the criminal from executing his plans. An appearance before the Grand Jury, perhaps, maybe not even that.

Even if you have a permit, I would feel a little uncomfortable hanging around with you. Is that understandable?

I do have a permit & lots of Military experience with most of the weapons listed. Sounds like you have little knowledge of firearms safety & the intent of the Founding Fathers (most sons of Virginia also). I carry any place I may legally do so.

Please correct me if I'm wrong with your firearms experience. If you were to show to any herf I've been to, me failing to carry would only reduce the dozen, or so, carried by one.

[Sancho Panza]

I'd be careful about that bro'. I don't know WV's laws on the matter, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fly in FL.

sure it would, Florida has nearly identical firearms laws to Mississippi (one of them apparently copied the other) & reciprical agreements with many States on concealed carry...without a permit, though, in Florida, it's a Class 3 felony to carry concealed...

[Sancho Panza]

That wasn't mean for you Sancho.

I guess we live in different worlds.

yes, I see that now, sorry

[Sancho Panza]

I can understand reasons for carrying a sidearm ... but why more than one?

SP ... have you ever had to use your weapons in self-defense?

backup, 2 are in the car

not in a civilian situation, hope I never do...it's kind of like an uneventful trip in your auto is to be desired, rather than an eventful one (flat tire, wreck, out of gas) who wants that?

[Wasch_24]

[QUOTE=Wasch_24]I am wondering sort of the same thing.

Why or when do you see yourself ever actually using it?

IF I'm ever in fear for my life or limb, or the life of others. Also in protection of my property, that is auto & home.



I'd stop the criminal from executing his plans. An appearance before the Grand Jury, perhaps, maybe not even that.



I do have a permit & lots of Military experience with most of the weapons listed. Sounds like you have little knowledge of firearms safety & the intent of the Founding Fathers (most sons of Virginia also). I carry any place I may legally do so.

Please correct me if I'm wrong with your firearms experience. If you were to show to any herf I've been to, me failing to carry would only reduce the dozen, or so, carried by one.I 100% agree that it is everyones right to carry/own/use firearms. I just struggle to understand the 'why' for those of us that don't deal with cash deposits or similar things.

I have Army training with the M-16, M-4, and 9mm. I grew up deer hunting with my father in Michigan with 12 gauge shotguns, 44 cal. rifles and pistols. 30/30 lever actions, 30-0-6 (thirty 'ot six) semi autos, and others. I know how to safely handle a weapon and I trust others ability to handle 'em safely. An accident isn't my concern.

My concern is that if you aren't carrying and I say or do something to really infuriate you could kick my ass. If you are carrying and I piss you off somehow you have the ability to shoot me.

[Sancho Panza]

If every able bodied citizen carried, there'd be much less crime.

Now I understand some with tempers best not carry, particularly if they have road rage. I have a friend that applies to, but for now, he's in Iraq, & carrying anyway.

[Jwrussell]

Hmmm..even though I don't currently, there are multiple reasons to carry. Personally, I'd probably only carry where I felt it necessary as it's kind of a PITA to conceal in the clothes I wear. Wearing a jacket/coat in FL isn't much of an option. However, I can absolutely see the reasoning behind carrying everywhere. Very much a case of, "better to have it and not need it, than...", ya know?

As to carrying more than one? Well, the obvious answer would be back up, but I'll let Sancho answer for himself as that's quite an arsenal to be toting around. Most folks I've spoken to on the subject carry a pistol and a knife. A small few carry a small back-up pistol.

Todd: you pray to God you never have to, but again, see the comment above. As to your last comment? I'd ask for a little clarification, because honestly, no I don't really understand.

[fuente]

for me, if I lived in an area where I needed to carry a weapon, I'd get the hell out of there and never come back. Same goes for any environment me or my family were in.

Take that out of the equation, and with the exception of freak robberies and stickups, which none of us can completely avoid, personally I would have no reason to carry anything or have anything in my home.

[Wasch_24]

If every able bodied citizen carried, there'd be much less crime.

Now I understand some with tempers best not carry, particularly if they have road rage. I have a friend that applies to, but for now, he's in Iraq, & carrying anyway.I wholeheartedly agree.

Question, because I honestly don't know.

If one has a concealed carry permit, are there rules/regulations about drinking or using drugs that will lead to immdiate revocation of the priveledge?

[Sancho Panza]

I stand corrected on your firearms experience. Yes, those who can't control their tempers may want to consider not carrying. (We were typing at the same time).

Can't imagine pulling a firearm on someone for anything other than being in fear for my life, limb or property like car, or home.

[Wasch_24]

Hmmm..even though I don't currently, there are multiple reasons to carry. Personally, I'd probably only carry where I felt it necessary as it's kind of a PITA to conceal in the clothes I wear. Wearing a jacket/coat in FL isn't much of an option. However, I can absolutely see the reasoning behind carrying everywhere. Very much a case of, "better to have it and not need it, than...", ya know?

As to carrying more than one? Well, the obvious answer would be back up, but I'll let Sancho answer for himself as that's quite an arsenal to be toting around. Most folks I've spoken to on the subject carry a pistol and a knife. A small few carry a small back-up pistol.

Todd: you pray to God you never have to, but again, see the comment above. As to your last comment? I'd ask for a little clarification, because honestly, no I don't really understand.Ok, say we are herfing. I'm drinking. I'm getting beligerant and really piss you off, hell maybe I piss on you.

If you aren't carrying you would kick my assand that is all you could do.

If you were carrying and I pissed you off to the point you lose control and whip out your piece and shoot me in the arm/leg/foot whatever.

The second concerns me more. Both are possibly lethal. Both are likely never to occur but you never know, sometimes folks just snap.

[Jwrussell]

sure it would, Florida has nearly identical firearms laws to Mississippi (one of them apparently copied the other) & reciprical agreements with many States on concealed carry...without a permit, though, in Florida, it's a Class 3 felony to carry concealed...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding then? Sounds like mounting the holster inside the car, not IN the console, but out in the open? Do I have that wrong?

[Sancho Panza]

well, I don't use drugs & rarely drink until drunk...I'm a sleepy drunk, so @ my last 4 day herf took one sip of a Mojito, that's all...but, alcohol & guns don't mix...so you have take extra care...if you have children, I'll even unload & lock the ammo & pistol separately, except the one on my person

[Wasch_24]

Are their rules about consumption and carrying permits?

[fuente]

if everyone carried there would be less crime? You really think so?

Do countries that have stricter gun laws have MORE crime?

I guess, again, we live in different worlds.

If I knew for a fact that someone other than a law enforcement officer was packing, I would under no circumstances allow my 19 month-old or my wife anywhere near them.

It's the environment you grow up in I guess. I was never around guns, live in a very safe area with hardly no crime. We didn't go hunting for deer, bear, or anything else. I am not a gun collector or a member of the NRA.

If I did experience any of those things my reference point may be different.

[Sancho Panza]

if any part is concealed, or hidden from view, the law considers it concealed

[Black Dog]

I'd be careful about that bro'. I don't know WV's laws on the matter, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fly in FL.
Don't worry, I am well versed on the laws anywhere I carry, including FL where I have a non-resident permit.
As for WV my license allows me to "carry concealed, on or about my person". The same would hold true for FL. In most states (but not all) concealed is concealed, whether in your vehicle or walking down the street.

[Wasch_24]

The weird thing for me is that I have met a few brothers from the boards at the DC herf, one of them recently posted that he never leaves home without his peice and I instantly had a changed impression of everything from that day that had to do with him. Not negative at all. It just changed. That's why this has piqued my interst.

[Sancho Panza]

Are their rules about consumption and carrying permits?

I'm sure there are in some states. As far as snapping, a police officer is just as likely to snap as the next fellow, are you afraid of one of them carrying around you?

[Wasch_24]

Don't worry, I am well versed on the laws anywhere I carry, including FL where I have a non-resident permit.
As for WV my license allows me to "carry concealed, on or about my person". The same would hold true for FL. In most states (but not all) concealed is concealed, whether in your vehicle or walking down the street.Were you carrying at the DC herf?

[Wasch_24]

I'm sure there are in some states. As far as snapping, a police officer is just as likely to snap as the next fellow, are you afraid of one of them carrying around you?Truthfully, when ever I see someone I don't know or have never seen weilding a wepon with one I have the same feeling, so yes.

Basic training marksmanship training really concerned me for the first few days. All these kids, I say that because I joined at 21 and everyone else was 17/18, under all that distress from the experience of basic training carrying loaded weapons around. It bothered me a little at first.

[Sancho Panza]

Do countries that have stricter gun laws have MORE crime?

Have a look @ the SKY ROCKETING crime in nearly gun less GREAT BRITAIN. CRIMINALs know the chance of their victim having a firearm are but little.

[1f1fan]

I have a carry permit here in VA, and so does 4 of my other friends.

I got the permit because I am, like many others here, into firearms and also for personal protection. I generally do not go into areas that are dangerous, carry large amounts of cash or put myself in harms way. Howver, I'm sure most victims of violent crimes, robbery and carjackings felt the same way until it happened to them.

I'm sure there are people who have been carrying for many, many years and never have had to use their weapon to defend themselves and that is great. Beleive me, the last think I want to do is shoot someone. But if me and my wife are out and our lives are in danger and it gets to the point where we cannot escape (always option 1, gun or no gun).... and its the bad guy(s) vs. us...I am going to do everything I can to make sure we are not hurt.

Bottom line, it's better to be prepared with a gun and not have to use it than not be prepared and wish you had a gun.

Guns cannot be used in VA to defend your personal property....in the case of an intruder with a weapon inside your house that is different. If someone is running out of your house with a TV you cannot pop them in the back and go get your TV back......you will go to jail.

Todd....I used to be the same way. Hell I even remember how nervous I was the first time I went to an indoor shooting range.

Consequences and ramifications of actually using your weapon vary on the situation.

[1f1fan]

Were you carrying at the DC herf?

If he did, he did a good job of concealment. And I hope he wasn't....that would be a BIG no-no in DC.

[Sancho Panza]

I don't recall ever having carried a loaded weapon in a non range or livefire scenario, maybe blanks.

Yes, once, when I was pay officer, back when we paid in cash, I was issued a .45 & one loaded mag, but there was no round in the chamber.

[Wasch_24]

If he did, he did a good job of concealment. And I hope he wasn't....that would be a BIG no-no in DC.That's what I was thinking.

I have a co-worker that carries all the time. He keeps his IWB holster on, empty, all day. Ha also has mace and a loaded magazine on his belt all day every day.

It is just very forgein to me. I guess that is because I have only used firearms outdoors. Hell, even cleaning the rifles inside seemed stragne to me for a very long time.

[Sancho Panza]

DC has probably the strictest anti-gun laws in the u. S. Look how low the crime rate is there.

Bottom line, it's better to be prepared with a gun and not have to use it than not be prepared and wish you had a gun.

Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6.

[Wasch_24]

This is an excellent thread so far I might add. :thumbsup:

[smokem94]

When I lived in Idaho I had a concealed carry License and now that I am back in Colorado I have one. I can not ever remember actually carrying a weapon concealed. I believe in our right to bear arms and had the permits because I could.... not really for protection or any other purpose. I believe this is why most of us that have permits have them....that is we can't stand the thought that someday we won't even be able to own a gun.
It's the little at a time scenario....first no carry, then no weapon someone considers an assault weapon, then handguns, etc., etc.

[Black Dog]

if everyone carried there would be less crime? You really think so?

Do countries that have stricter gun laws have MORE crime?

I guess, again, we live in different worlds.

If I knew for a fact that someone other than a law enforcement officer was packing, I would under no circumstances allow my 19 month-old or my wife anywhere near them.

It's the environment you grow up in I guess. I was never around guns, live in a very safe area with hardly no crime. We didn't go hunting for deer, bear, or anything else. I am not a gun collector or a member of the NRA.

If I did experience any of those things my reference point may be different.
You might be surprised to learn that there are many times more concealed carry permit holders in this country than there are law enforcement officers and that leo's are somewhere in the neighborhood of ten times more likely to commit a crime involving a firearm, including rape and murder, than non-leo's.

[Jwrussell]

Holy crud this thread is growing by leaps and bounds!

Window and Sancho, we have different understandings of the laws. I'll have to go back to my reading material at home I guess.

Todd: I can see where you are coming from, but I guess it's a glass half full/empty type thing as well. I guess I just have a little more faith in my fellow man that I'm not going to be able to piss off the large percentage of folks out there enough that they'd want to kill me. See, it also has to do with how you view firearms, firearm safety and the like.

Believe it or not, I was taught my very basic beliefs on gun safety from my Grandmother ages ago. When in CA she used to carry a little 22 in her car. Even had to use it once. I grew up in NJ so needless to say, had little exposure to firearms until I left the state, but had always been fascinated by them. Anyway, that lesson from my grandmother was this: If you ever find yourself in the situation where you feel the need to pull a gun on someone, you better be ready to aim to kill and you better pull the trigger. If either of those two things are questionable in your mind you better not pull it.

On top of that, I see gun ownership as not ONLY a right, but a deep responsibility. If I thought it remotely possible that I could lose my temper far enough to pull a gun on someone I would have no business owning or carrying.

Think of it this way as well: Lots and lots of people carry pocket knives. They can do just as much damage in the situation you are talking about. Would it change your perception if you found out they were carrying a pocket knife as much?

[1f1fan]

If anyone wants more info on laws packing.org is a really good site. For those in VA please check out vcdl.org

Todd...I find that my driving is more cautions and my willingness to confront someone lets say in a road rage situation is less because of the responsibility that goes with carrying a weapon. I find that I try to avoid confrontation even more than I usually would. That said....I'm sure there are some hot heads out there that are not as responsible.

[Black Dog]

If he did, he did a good job of concealment. And I hope he wasn't....that would be a BIG no-no in DC.
LOL, no I abide by the laws of any jurisdiction I may be in, so I was not carrying at the Herf.

[Jwrussell]

if everyone carried there would be less crime? You really think so?

Do countries that have stricter gun laws have MORE crime?



Fuente, if you are of the mind, I would suggest checking up on crime in England and Australia. Both have extremley strict gun control laws. Sancho already pointed out DC. And there are a bunch of studies out there that show that the states with CCW laws have seen a reduction in crime since said laws were passed (not to say there aren't studies (statistics ya know?) that refute some of this).

[Sancho Panza]

Jwrussell, when you first apply for a permit in Mississippi, they give you a printed copy of the Law; when you have a Curio & Relic Federal Firearms License, they also mail you a book with all the State gun laws in them.

[Sancho Panza]

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/Default.aspx

is a good place to start looking at gun laws

[smokem94]

If anyone want more info on laws packing.org is a really good site. For those in VA please check out vcdl.org

Todd...I find that my driving is more cautions and my willingness to confront someone lets say in a road rage situation is less because of the responsibility that goes with carrying a weapon. I find that I try to avoid confrontation even more than I usually would. That said....I'm sure there are some hot heads out there that are not as responsible.
You are so right....
I am so pleased we are keeping this civil as this is a highly volitale topic, but here are the facts. The anti gun people will always point to the terrible things that occur as a result of improper use of a weapon. It will be played up by the media and and they will say, see here is why.
The facts are 99.99999% of all gun owners are responsible, sensible, trained people that are fully aware of the consequences for improper use. For someone to fear these people to the point where they would not allow their children near them is just a lack of understanding and an overreaction. No offense to anyone there are many people that feel this way but they are just wrong.
Guns don't make people bad or irrational or careless. They are all ready that way and guns or no guns, these kind of people are going to do something bad regardless.

[tripp]

We keep some weaponry around the office here.
We sometimes have amounts of cash and something easy to steal (vehicles)
Never had to use them or thought it was gonna be needed.

I have heard an armed society is a polite society. But I disagree,
There is always some chickenshit guy with little man's disease that has to carry a bigger gun or show it off to impress the ladies or his "friends"

If you are required to be in a bad place where the danger could be there I can understand why you would carry. But to go to the grocery store or just normal errands, I dont see it.
But if you are licensed and have the training and are of sound mind and want to carry a gun then so be it, I don't have a problem with it.
But just like the crooks, use a gun in a crime get double penalty that is way it should be.

But I dont tend to run my mouth off or frequent bad places so I feel the danger level is low. And I try to stay away from road rage.
That is a plan that has worked for 40 years for me.
I guess having a relative commit suicide by a firearm skews my perception.
As does seeing a person actualy shot by someone in anger.

[Ironman]

LOL, no I abide by the laws of any jurisdiction I may be in, so I was not carrying at the Herf.

Whew, I'm still glad that I didn't piss you off :smokingbo

Ironman

[Jwrussell]

:rolling: at Ironman!

[tripp]

There are a lot of people killed by cars every year.
There are a lot of people killed by guns every year.

In almost all cases it is not the item at fault it is the person in charge of the item at fault.

[Black Dog]

I'm curious about something: For those of you that do carry weapons, is it because you are into the hobby, or because you are generally concerned that the areas you live in or frequent are so dangerous that carrying a weapon is warranted?

Not insulting anyone, just trying to comprehend why someone would need to mount a weapon in their car and carry a Glock under their trenchcoat...
That was me he was refering to in regards to "mounting" a weapon in my car. My reason for this is simply that if you ever do find the need for a gun, you'll need it in a hurry. When I carry it's usually with an Inside the Waist Band holster concealed under a jacket or light shirt. Therefore when I'm sitting in my car it would be nearly impossible to get to in a hurry. It's difficult to describe without showing you the car itself, but when in place it will be concealed from view from any perpective aside from mine as the driver and will comply with most of the states laws with the possible exception of Ohio where I rarely travel.
One example for quick access: Several years ago there was a fellow who shot and killed several people at a traffic light on Rt. 123 in Mclean VA in front of the CIA. I went through that traffic light nearly every morning myself at the time. I'd bet my bottom dollar that if you could ask any one of the people who was killed there if they had to do over again, they'd say they wished they had a "Glock" "mounted" in their car for quick access.

[Jwrussell]

Jwrussell, when you first apply for a permit in Mississippi, they give you a printed copy of the Law; when you have a Curio & Relic Federal Firearms License, they also mail you a book with all the State gun laws in them.

Just as clarification, I wasn't trying to say that you didn't understand or know the law. I have a book that details the gun laws in FL at home. As much progress as we have made in some areas with gun laws, some are still much to vague, so I like to make absolutely sure I understand them and, more importantly, understand how they will be enforced.

I wouldn't have a loaded handgun out in the open (and that's how I read bolting a holster to the outside of a console) in my car almost no matter the circumstances. Regardless of if I was in the right or not, I just don't trust that I might end up pulled over for some reason by the wrong police officer who maybe doesn't understand, or chooses to misunderstand that portion of the law.

That being said, that set up sounds a heck of a lot easier to get to if needed than most.

[Jwrussell]

We were typing at the same time Windowrx. Thanks for the clarification. And as said above, I can certainly see how it would be much more handy that way. And probably less of a hassle than switching to a cross-draw evertime you got in your car.

[Sancho Panza]

I abide by those laws, too, not because I'm yielding my right to keep & bears arms; but, rather, for the same reason I pay my taxes, even though I view the Internal Revenue Act as un-constitutional:

I don't wanna go to JAIL!

[Sancho Panza]

the concealed whole of in part is for Peace Officer use, I think, on someone who doesn't have a permit;

I sure most understand to conceal from THEFT by hiding under the seat when you aren't in the car

[Jwrussell]

Sancho and Windowrx, I was thinking of those who do NOT have a concealed permit when I mentioned the concern on the "bolted holster" issue. Without a permit that would be illegal here.

Can you clarify your above post? Not following...

[Sancho Panza]

yes, you're correct, I think, since I have a permit, I'm not really concerned with the other Florida gun laws...

[Black Dog]

Just as clarification, I wasn't trying to say that you didn't understand or know the law. I have a book that details the gun laws in FL at home. As much progress as we have made in some areas with gun laws, some are still much to vague, so I like to make absolutely sure I understand them and, more importantly, understand how they will be enforced.

I wouldn't have a loaded handgun out in the open (and that's how I read bolting a holster to the outside of a console) in my car almost no matter the circumstances. Regardless of if I was in the right or not, I just don't trust that I might end up pulled over for some reason by the wrong police officer who maybe doesn't understand, or chooses to misunderstand that portion of the law.

That being said, that set up sounds a heck of a lot easier to get to if needed than most.
No offense taken. My replies may seem "short" but that's only because I am trying to keep up with this thread between phone calls and people stopping by my office.
Also, just to clarify a few things:
I don't drink at all, I don't do drugs and rarely go to bars or dangerous parts of town. I'm a low profile, mild mannered fellow. I neither expect nor desire to ever have to use a firearm to defend myself. However, I do believe that I have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms and to use them to defend myself should the need ever arise. I have taken several training courses and practice regularly. Firearm safety is paramount.
Also, along those lines, I don't ever expect to have my house burn down, but I keep fire extinguishers around anyway.
When I'm away from my vehicle and there is a firearm inside, it is unloaded and locked in a box bolted under the passenger seat.

[fuente]

You might be surprised to learn that there are many times more concealed carry permit holders in this country than there are law enforcement officers and that leo's are somewhere in the neighborhood of ten times more likely to commit a crime involving a firearm, including rape and murder, than non-leo's.

I'm not suprised at the first part. I'd like to see the statistics on the second part. Something non-bias.

I'm sure I've met people in my lifetime that have done horrible things, statistically it is very likely that I have met someone who was a murderer (or killed someone else somehow), drug dealer, drug user, etc. It's a wicked world.

But if I knew this information beforehand, I would steer clear. It is similar in the situation with weapons. If I knowingly have information that you carry a gun, myself and my family will not be put in that position, ever.

[David]

Do countries that have stricter gun laws have MORE crime?


You betcha they do. You should take a look at the graph that shows the crime rate in England after they banned civilians from owning them. Wanna take a gander at which direction the line is going on the graph?

[David]

Consistently..........

[David]

Every year........

[David]

That being said: I carry a Glock 23 or my newly acquired Taurus 2" .357 Magnum.

Todd: Believe it or not, in a heated situation that you keep describing...a person who is carrying is more apt to walk away from it due to the possibility of getting in a scuffle while armed.

[cvm4]

My dad used to be big into guns. Hell guns and a car dealer go hand in hand. He had a big ass safe to put them all in. And might I say, guns hold their value really well, just like cigars.

That being said, I could really care less if someone is carrying. 99.9% of the time you have no clue someone has a gun if you meet them. I never knew until Ken told me he carried. Not to mention all the hunters down here with shot guns in the trucks, etc. It's almost a way of life in the south.

[Sancho Panza]

I've got a headache, fellows, let's go have a cigar & talk about this again tomorrow.

[Sancho Panza]

Cliff, it's actually less of a problem when people don't know than open carry.

[fuente]

it was a good discussion. Shows how in different parts of the country there are different opinions on things.

[David]

it was a good discussion. Shows how in different parts of the country there are different opinions on things.

I agree. I commend those that participated in the thread for not passing judgement and/or starting a flame war. Thumbs up.

[fuente]

I wouldn't want to start a flame war with any of you..

You may pull out your weapons and shoot me !!!

[David]

I wouldn't want to start a flame war with any of you..

You may pull out your weapons and shoot me !!!

Hahahahaha.........

[Black Dog]

This was indeed an excellent discussion. I was having a hard time getting any work done this afternoon!

[Wasch_24]

LMAO @ fuente's last comment.

I think my views on this stem from where most of my experience with firearms comes from. Walking around the woods with a rifle looking for signs of deer, sitting there freezing my ass off waiting for a deer, or sighting in the scopes at a DNR range. It just isn't natural for me to see someone at say McDonalds with a hand gun in their belt.

I 100% beliefve that it is their right to do so, although it is also a priveledge.

And yes, the fact that this discussion has remained civil is a true example of the brotherhood of this site.

[tripp]

I also commend everybody on here for the way this has been handled in a civil fashion.
And in honor of that I am using my own judgement and making it a sticky at least for awhile.

I do not think that this thread would of flowed as well or remained civil on any other board. :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Jwrussell]

That's why it's called concealment and he/she obviously isn't very good at it.

I've got an interesting story regarding just that Mark, and I've been meaning to post it so thanks for the opening. Of course this is just a teaser because I have to jump off now! :lol: I'll post it tomorrow. Along with something else I've been wantint to say...

[Texas Cop]

Damn, I don't check this place for two days, and I miss a good firearms discussion? Sumbeech...


Andrew

[Texas Cop]

Ohh..as to carrying and consuming alcohol in Texas....It's grounds for immediate revocation of your license, and possible felony conviction, depending upon your level of consumption. It is also illegal to carry a weapon on the premises of any business that recieves 51% or more of it's income from the sale of alcoholic beverages...


Andrew

[Wasch_24]

Ohh..as to carrying and consuming alcohol in Texas....It's grounds for immediate revocation of your license, and possible felony conviction, depending upon your level of consumption. It is also illegal to carry a weapon on the premises of any business that recieves 51% or more of it's income from the sale of alcoholic beverages...


AndrewThat makes perfect sense to me.

[Jwrussell]

Pretty sure the same applies down here in the Sunshine state...

[Black Dog]

Carrying in WV while intoxicated would definitely get you revoked and to me it's a no-brainer that alcohol and guns is a bad idea anywhere. There is no law against carrying concealed in a bar though, which I like since I don't drink anyway.
I don't like VA's bar/restaurant carry policy though. You can carry in a bar/restaurant but it must be open. To me that just invites trouble and needlessly alarms some patrons. I just don't carry when I go to a VA establishment that serves alcohol.

[Jwrussell]

OK, so my story that I mentioned above. I'm not sure this is TOTALLY on topic, but it involves someone carrying "concealed", so should be all good, right?:grinFU:

As a preamble, let me state that I think every gun-owner has a duty to be an ambassador for the rest of us. There's enough hostility or ambivilance towards gun-owners as a group anyway, no reason to make it worse.


Sooooooooooo...

The wife and I are out at an upscale chinese restaurant for lunch. We are sitting at a table one table away from the corner booth. I'm facing the booth and the wife has her back to it. Said booth is occupied by 4-5 guys, all in civies, having lunch. (based on haircuts and such it is possible they were off-duty police or plain-clothes police, but no way of knowing).
About halfway through lunch, as my eyes are wandering around the restaurant, as they tend to do, I glance in the direction of this booth and my eyes are drawn right to the hip of the guy sitting at the opening of the booth. Low and behold there's the majority of the top of his pistol sticking out, no longer covered by his shirt. I mention it to my wife, look around (the place is kind of empty) and decide to give it a few minutes figuring he'll figure it out. Well, 10 minutes or so go by and there's that pistol, still peaking out at me, so I look around again to make sure no one is close enough to over hear, lean out from the table and give the guy a heads up that his pistol is flashing.

He looks at me, looks down...covers the pistol, looks back at me and turns back to the table...with a smirk on his face. WTF? Oh well, no biggie, maybe I'm just imagining things and so what if the guy doesn't say anything, maybe he's embarressed about the whole thing. Well, a couple of minutes go by and the wife tells me that no, he doesn't seem to embarrassed from what she can hear, in fact, the whole table is sniggering and laughing about the idiot at the next table!

Oh well, try and do a good deed...

At any rate, the point being, at least I wasn't someone against folks carrying, or even ambivilent to the idea. The above response to someone like that (hell, to anyone really) does nothing but hurt your cause.

[1f1fan]

I don't like VA's bar/restaurant carry policy though. You can carry in a bar/restaurant but it must be open. To me that just invites trouble and needlessly alarms some patrons. I just don't carry when I go to a VA establishment that serves alcohol.

Yes, this policy is really messed up. You can open carry in resaurants but you cannot under any circumstances carry concealed. There has been a lot of press about this in Northern VA in the past few months....people got scared and called the police. I read transcrips of the 911 call and followed the entire thing (via e-mail updates) of people that were involved.

Brian, if you want to get updates on what is going on in VA go to vcdl.org and signup for the updates. VCDL is trying to get the restaurant ban changed so permit holders can carry concealed if not drinking alcohol. This may sound crazy to some people (carrying in a place that servers alcohol), but I HATE leaving my weapon in the car...it may get stolen and its a pain in the ass to take off and put on my IWB holster (I carry small of the back)

[Jwrussell]

Wow, that's interesting! You have to carry OPEN in a bar/restaurant??? I agree, that makes little sense. Not to mention, depending on the patrons, is probably just asking for an unpleasant experience (weird looks, staring, snide comments, etc.).

[Black Dog]

Yes, this policy is really messed up. You can open carry in resaurants but you cannot under any circumstances carry concealed. There has been a lot of press about this in Northern VA in the past few months....people got scared and called the police. I read transcrips of the 911 call and followed the entire thing (via e-mail updates) of people that were involved.

Brian, if you want to get updates on what is going on in VA go to vcdl.org and signup for the updates. VCDL is trying to get the restaurant ban changed so permit holders can carry concealed if not drinking alcohol. This may sound crazy to some people (carrying in a place that servers alcohol), but I HATE leaving my weapon in the car...it may get stolen and its a pain in the ass to take off and put on my IWB holster (I carry small of the back)

It's been a while since I've been to the VCDL site and I haven't followed the progress lately. I'll go and check them out.
It is just a silly law.

[Jwrussell]

Alrighty then. I said there was something I've been wanting to say, so here it is.

First I also want to comment on what a great thread this has been and how ubelievably civil it has been (considering the volatility of the subject matter). So, though I don't want to do anything to change that, I think the following needs to be addressed. And honestly, I think we are all intelligent and cool-headed enough to do so without trashing the thread. Please take what I'm about to bring up in the way it is meant, as a way to further the understanding between two groups with differing opinions. It is not a slam, nor is it an accusation.

Ok, now that all the disclaimers are out of the way! :wink:

Earlier in the thread the following was posted by Fuente:
I'm sure I've met people in my lifetime that have done horrible things, statistically it is very likely that I have met someone who was a murderer (or killed someone else somehow), drug dealer, drug user, etc. It's a wicked world.

But if I knew this information beforehand, I would steer clear. It is similar in the situation with weapons. If I knowingly have information that you carry a gun, myself and my family will not be put in that position, ever.

And I've seen other posts in other places that echo some of this sentiment, and even on this thread I think there are a few others who feel somewhat the same. What I would like to ask, is for those that feel this way, to really think about what the above statement, or one like it, says. Or maybe what it seems to say to those who carry, or who believe in the right to carry/right to keep and bear. And that is, that no matter who we really are, you want nothing to do with us if we carry a gun. That there is something inherintly evil/dangerous about a firearm, that if we carry one makes us inherintly evil/dangerous. In other words, it changes us from whoever we might be to someone not to be trusted. Either that, or it says that if we carry a gun that we are not to be trusted because of our decision to carry a gun.

What I'm trying to understand is this: what about carrying a gun makes any of us someone not to be trusted around you or your family? What "position" are you trying to avoid?

Here's another way to look at it. Let's say you come to Tampa and happen to be in my neighborhood. I don't carry, but I own firearms and always have a loaded pistol in the house. Would this knowledge affect whether or not you would accept an invitation to my Florida room for a smoke and a drink? And if so why?

Please, please, PLEASE understand that I am asking these questions with the sincere wish to understand a differing viewpoint, not to put anyone on the spot or call them out in a negative way. I simply want to help to further my knowledge of how you see me (as a gun-owner) and your knowledge of who I am.

[Sancho Panza]

Pretty sure the same applies down here in the Sunshine state...

You may carry into a restaurant that serves alcohol, but you may not sit in the BAR area of said restaurant; on the other hand, you can't carry in stand alone Bar.

[Sancho Panza]

I don't hunt; but the 2d Amendment was not about your daddy's shotgun.

Used to hunt ducks, & have hunted deer, rabbit & dove.

[Poni]

What I'm trying to understand is this: what about carrying a gun makes any of us someone not to be trusted around you or your family? What "position" are you trying to avoid?

I'm not much of a gun person myself, but that doesn't mean i don't believe others should own them.

Here's one this point of view on this for arguments sake ...

As a child, think of all the lurking and searching you did around the house. Think of the BB gun you found, the cigarettes, the alcohol.... You had to try them. I think most people are afraid if children found this gun, only an accident can happen. This may sound like an over paranoid point of view, but these things do happen.

Or maybe its just not being knowledgable about them that brings fear. For example if the gun is at your hip and you fall is it possible it goes off? Honestly it may sound like a dumb question because i know very little about them, but this may be along the lines someone is thinking.

[Sancho Panza]

there are NO children in my household, if there were, I'd not keep loaded weapons, except for one in my possession, then I'd have to unload & secure weapon & ammo while in the shower

[Poni]

Another question for guys who carry.

Do you feel differently when your not carrying? Like when you forget to wear a watch and you know something is missing but you can't put your finger on it?

Has it become something you can't see yourself without daily?

[Black Dog]

As a child, think of all the lurking and searching you did around the house. Think of the BB gun you found, the cigarettes, the alcohol.... You had to try them. I think most people are afraid if children found this gun, only an accident can happen. This may sound like an over paranoid point of view, but these things do happen.
I think this is an education issue. In my family we always had guns in the house and always had access to them. There was no mystery or taboo about them. We were taught what they were, what they could do and how to be safe with them. As young as 9 years old I was allowed to take a .22 and a box of ammo to the farm dump and plink bottles all by myself if I wanted to.
We live in a different world now. I keep my guns in a safe and wouldn't let a child that young go shooting alone. But I would take them shooting and teach them the safety that I learned early on. I don't want to turn this into a social commentary but this is among the things I see as problems with our society today. We no longer teach our children common sense and responsibility and instead blame anything that happens on the gun, the firecracker, the television show, the video, the music, the car, etc.

Also, JWRussell, your post about who anti gun people think we are is well put and right on. I've been wondering that myself. As I mentioned I'm a pretty upstanding citizen, I don't drink, don't do drugs, I work hard, pay my taxes, volunteer in my community, abide by more laws than most people I know (I don't even like to speed), I'm a good neighbor and help anyone I can. I've been through state and federal background checks and consider firearm safety to be the first priority for any gun owner.
Why would someone be afraid to be around me?

[Jwrussell]

As a child, think of all the lurking and searching you did around the house. Think of the BB gun you found, the cigarettes, the alcohol.... You had to try them. I think most people are afraid if children found this gun, only an accident can happen. This may sound like an over paranoid point of view, but these things do happen.

Or maybe its just not being knowledgable about them that brings fear. For example if the gun is at your hip and you fall is it possible it goes off? Honestly it may sound like a dumb question because i know very little about them, but this may be along the lines someone is thinking.


Ashy, I never leave the gun loaded or accessible if there are young children around. I have no idea, honestly, how I'd handle it if I had my own children, but I can say it would start with what 1F1Fan said. Early teaching on firearms safety. No mystique around it, just flat out this is what this is and this is what it can do. The more you understand something, the less there is to fear about it.

As to your other question about falling...the answer is pretty much no. Most firearms have safeties to keep them from being fired. Most revolvers don't, but I don't know anyone that carries a double action revolver cocked. A Colt 1911 with the hammer cocked and the safety off might be a possibility, but honestly something would have to be wrong with the gun (i.e. something loose, etc., IMHO) for something like that to happen. Firearms technology nowadays has made it just about impossible for a firearm to go off unless you actually pull the trigger.

[Poni]

We live in a different world now. I keep my guns in a safe and wouldn't let a child that young go shooting alone. But I would take them shooting and teach them the safety that I learned early on. I don't want to turn this into a social commentary but this is among the things I see as problems with our society today. We no longer teach our children common sense and responsibility and instead blame anything that happens on the gun, the firecracker, the television show, the video, the music, the car, etc.

A fire cracker, a tv show, music etc... aren't deadly weapons, is the problem. You can teach all you want, and i do agree with you that teaching begins in the home, but a gun is final. Kids are kids, they make mistakes not matter how well they are taught. A mistake with a gun could be much larger than expirementing with weed (or pine needles as Wasch refers to it).

[Wasch_24]

Even though someone has a permit to carry a wepaon in public, concealed or not, it still comes across as forgeign to me.

I don't associate the gun or the person with potential wrong doing nor do I think of them as a bad person socially.

Throughout the 18 hours or so of this discussion I have come to realize that the uneasy feeling is directly realated to my experience with firearms.

Even though I was in the Army and was trained to shoot to kill the enemy, my first thoughts when I see or talk about firearms are hunting and recreation, not self defense. That is why it seems so foreign to me that someone would carry a handgun on their person in public places like restaurants, grocery stores, or the mall. It just doesn't fall into either of my previously mentioned 'perceived' uses for forearms.

I do agree, it is everyones right to carry and bear arms but I also feel that it is a priveledge to exercise that right, or more so, a persons actions past or present should affect their ability to exercise that right.

I don't disagree with concealed cary by any means, it's the idea of doing it in public that is very strange to me because of my experience with firearms and my perceived uses for them.

[Jwrussell]

Larry, a firecracker can cause some major damage depending on the size and where it is when it goes off. Maybe not deadly, but definately permanent damage. That being said, you are correct, a firearm can cause more damage and said damage can very easily be permanent. Which is why owning a firearm is such a responsibility. But again, it comes down to personal responsibility. If a child finds a loaded weapon in their home and ends up shooting himself/a friend/whomever, the parents are responsible. In the same way they would be if the child found Dad's Buck Hunting knife/Mom's big Kitchen knife, etc., and managed to stab himself/a friend/whomever.
Same as if Jr. finds a bottle of cleaner and decides to drink it.

It all works out the same. It's not the fault of the item. Education, prevention, responsibility.

[Jwrussell]

Even though I was in the Army and was trained to shoot to kill the enemy...
I do agree, it is everyones right to carry and bear arms but I also feel that it is a priveledge to exercise that right, or more so, a persons actions past or present should affect their ability to exercise that right.

I don't disagree with concealed cary by any means, it's the idea of doing it in public that is very strange to me because of my experience with firearms and my perceived uses for them.

First, concealed carry for self defense can be easily (in my view) related to your experience in the military. It's simply self-defense on a smaller scale rather than a larger scale (Defense of the country).

As to the bolded section, they do. There are very specific rules limiting your right to carry, heck, even own firearms. And their are plenty of rules that can get that right yanked if you abuse it or do something wrong with it. Or am I missing a point?

As to the last point, not to be picky, but where do you agree with it if not in public? :wink:

[Black Dog]

A fire cracker, a tv show, music etc... aren't deadly weapons, is the problem. You can teach all you want, and i do agree with you that teaching begins in the home, but a gun is final. Kids are kids, they make mistakes not matter how well they are taught. A mistake with a gun could be much larger than expirementing with weed (or pine needles as Wasch refers to it).
My apologies. I should have left my social commentary out of it. I didn't mean to imply that that these were deadly instruments. Although, television violence, video games and music have all been blamed on numerous occasions for teen suicide, violence and yes, even murder.

[Wasch_24]

The fact of the matter is there are a large number of people that aren't responsible enough to own guns and yet they do.


Hell, there a lot of people who aren't responsible enough to own a car too (sucks that they all seem to share my commute route :hysterica ).

[Poni]

My apologies. I should have left my social commentary out of it. I didn't mean to imply that that these were deadly instruments. Although, television violence, video games and music have all been blamed on numerous occasions for teen suicide, violence and yes, even murder.

i agree with alot of what you said. Education definitly starts in the home, to blame violence on TV etc... is ridiculos.

[Jwrussell]

I can't say I disagree Todd.

[Black Dog]

Hell, there a lot of people who aren't responsible enough to own a car too (sucks that they all seem to share my commute route :hysterica ).
That's funny Todd! And here I thought they were all on my route to work!

[Poni]

you guys take 287 south to work also?

[fuente]

Alrighty then. I said there was something I've been wanting to say, so here it is.

First I also want to comment on what a great thread this has been and how ubelievably civil it has been (considering the volatility of the subject matter). So, though I don't want to do anything to change that, I think the following needs to be addressed. And honestly, I think we are all intelligent and cool-headed enough to do so without trashing the thread. Please take what I'm about to bring up in the way it is meant, as a way to further the understanding between two groups with differing opinions. It is not a slam, nor is it an accusation.

Ok, now that all the disclaimers are out of the way! :wink:

Earlier in the thread the following was posted by Fuente:


And I've seen other posts in other places that echo some of this sentiment, and even on this thread I think there are a few others who feel somewhat the same. What I would like to ask, is for those that feel this way, to really think about what the above statement, or one like it, says. Or maybe what it seems to say to those who carry, or who believe in the right to carry/right to keep and bear. And that is, that no matter who we really are, you want nothing to do with us if we carry a gun. That there is something inherintly evil/dangerous about a firearm, that if we carry one makes us inherintly evil/dangerous. In other words, it changes us from whoever we might be to someone not to be trusted. Either that, or it says that if we carry a gun that we are not to be trusted because of our decision to carry a gun.

What I'm trying to understand is this: what about carrying a gun makes any of us someone not to be trusted around you or your family? What "position" are you trying to avoid?

Here's another way to look at it. Let's say you come to Tampa and happen to be in my neighborhood. I don't carry, but I own firearms and always have a loaded pistol in the house. Would this knowledge affect whether or not you would accept an invitation to my Florida room for a smoke and a drink? And if so why?

Please, please, PLEASE understand that I am asking these questions with the sincere wish to understand a differing viewpoint, not to put anyone on the spot or call them out in a negative way. I simply want to help to further my knowledge of how you see me (as a gun-owner) and your knowledge of who I am.

I don't have anything against anyone who carries. It is your right to do so and I respect that right. I also do not think you are any less trustworthy and I wouldn't look at YOU as a person any differently. However, if I knew that you were carrying a weapon, a weapon that could very easily and quickly kill someone, without know you, your background, mental state, training or anything else, it would make me very uncomfortable and I would not put my family anywhere near a situation like that.

Of course you could say that about a lot of things; a lot of things can cause death where people aren't necessarily trained properly. Let me put it thsi way:

I go to one of your houses for a herf. Someone brings a weapon. Why? Maybe for protection, maybe it's just habit, maybe to show it off. Ok, no problem. Now let's assume everyone brings their weapons. Here we have 50 guys with at least 50 weapons. Does a scenario like that make you feel more or less safe? Some of you will say more, but for me it would be the opposite.

For the above scenario, what if only half of these people are trained properly? What if some of them pick fights when they are drunk? What if some are not mentally stable? With a gun, it only takes one mistake to end a life; one misunderstanding.

It's great that those of you who own weapons go thru all the proper training and know exactly how to use them safely. If I knew you guys better and TRUSTED you, I probably would feel differently. But if I didn't know you from Adam and saw a weapon on your person, I'd be out of there, for the simple reason that it is so easy to get a gun in this country that many people are not qualified to own them.

It's nothing against the person, and it's as much my upbringing and my environment (raised where guns were nowhere to be found) as anything else.

It's just an uncomfortable, uneasy feeling I have around people I don't know carrying instruments of death.

BTW if you invited me to your house and I knew that your guns were locked up and away from any children, then sure, I'd be there !!!

[Wasch_24]

I don't have anything against anyone who carries. It is your right to do so and I respect that right. I also do not think you are any less trustworthy and I wouldn't look at YOU as a person any differently. However, if I knew that you were carrying a weapon, a weapon that could very easily and quickly kill someone, without know you, your background, mental state, training or anything else, it would make me very uncomfortable and I would not put my family anywhere near a situation like that.

Of course you could say that about a lot of things; a lot of things can cause death where people aren't necessarily trained properly. Let me put it thsi way:

I go to one of your houses for a herf. Someone brings a weapon. Why? Maybe for protection, maybe it's just habit, maybe to show it off. Ok, no problem. Now let's assume everyone brings their weapons. Here we have 50 guys with at least 50 weapons. Does a scenario like that make you feel more or less safe? Some of you will say more, but for me it would be the opposite.

For the above scenario, what if only half of these people are trained properly? What if some of them pick fights when they are drunk? What if some are not mentally stable? With a gun, it only takes one mistake to end a life; one misunderstanding.

It's great that those of you who own weapons go thru all the proper training and know exactly how to use them safely. If I knew you guys better and TRUSTED you, I probably would feel differently. But if I didn't know you from Adam and saw a weapon on your person, I'd be out of there, for the simple reason that it is so easy to get a gun in this country that many people are not qualified to own them.

It's nothing against the person, and it's as much my upbringing and my environment (raised where guns were nowhere to be found) as anything else.

It's just an uncomfortable, uneasy feeling I have around people I don't know carrying instruments of death.

BTW if you invited me to your house and I knew that your guns were locked up and away from any children, then sure, I'd be there !!!Ecellent post. I wish I could have written it. I feel pretty much the same way.

[tripp]

I am not a big gun person for the reasons I stated earlier.
My best friend is an ex-air force guy that is very much into guns.
He does his own reloading, maintence everything. He is very well versed and safety consious. Hell even his daughter as a young teenager knew the smart and safe ways to handle and be around guns. He has dozens and I do not feel threatned or uneasy at his house. He has the training, the knowledge and the respect a gun deserves.
the cowboy jackass that buys the big caliber shiny gun to impress everybody scares me. There are people that try to compensate for other things such as self esteem, confidence and soforth.
The people that own many guns probably are safer than the guy who owns one.
That is just the way I see it.

[RiverRat]

We carry just in case!

We don't carry looking for a fight, and we don't all necassarily all live in high crime neighborhoods. You just never know what's gonna happen, and it only takes once.

I'm sure you carry a jack and a spare tire in your car? But are you expecting a flat? Of course not. Just in case....

You have insurance too, but you don't go driving around looking to get in an accident.... just in case.

The following story was posted on another board, by a member there.

My 23 year old hard-core pro-gun daughter works for the local auto dealership. she has various jobs, but part of her job is shipping various parts out UPS. Sometimes she needs to cut string and tape and she uses the small knife I gave her to carry around her neck on a chain.

It is a stainless, lock-blade knife with about a 1 & 1/2 blade with a skeltonized handle so the whole thing is small and light. (about 2 oz or less.)

I have also showed her how to use the knife if needed for a last-ditch self-defense move such as cutting a major artery so the perp bleeds out in about 5 minutes and collapses long before the 5 minutes is up.

A few young guys work with her and they noticed her using her knife and they were interested, wanted to examine it and asked her why she carried it around her neck. She told them that she uses it to cut string, tape and if needed to cut a car seat-belt if trapped in a car.

She also said she is willing to use it for self-defense.

The young guys, half laughing at her, said "Well, how many times have you needed that knife for self-defense?".

She replied something like this "The best way to answer that question is for us to go visit the local cemetery and stop by some of the graves of young women who have been kidnapped, beaten, raped and killed. There you can ask them "How many times have you needed self-defense?". Since those dead victims cannot answer, I will answer for them.

They only needed self-defense ONE time. And sadly, since at that ONE TIME they didn't have that self defense, THEY WILL NEVER NEED IT AGAIN.


Well said by a very savvy young lady.....

(RiverRat the carrier)

[Sancho Panza]

feel free to not come to any of the Gulf Coast herfs, NOT that you aren't welcome, even @ the Brew Pub in Mobile we can legally carry because we're not in the bar area & somewhere between 12 & 20 will be legally carrying

[Wasch_24]

I wonder though...
If I was being mugged at gun point there are two scenarios.

1) I don't do anything but what he tells me and couple things can happen...
...he takes my stuff and leaves
...he takes my stuff and still shoots me

2) While reaching for my wallet I pull out my concealed weapon and attempt to protect myself and one of four things can happen...
...I shoot first and am safe
...he shoots first and I am hurt/killed
...we shoot simultaneaously and both are injured/killed
...he runs from the unexpected turn of events.

Personally, I would rather try my chances on number one, that's just me.

My aunt owned a jewlery store and had a permit to keep a hand gun under the counter. One day a punk came in with a .22 handgun. She was able to reach the gun and pulled it on him. He ran because it was a huge .357. Afterwards everyone was telling her how lucky she was for having the gun but in hind site she didn't think so. She felt that it was a mistake becaue he would have likely left with some mercandise without doing anything harmful. She felt very lucky that he didn't shoot her for pulling the gun out. She sold the gun after that.

[Texas Cop]

I'll just jump in to touch on a couple of the previous posts here...

First off, in VA, you have to carry open in restraunts? That's pretty f-ed up...Anybody link me to the news stories/state rulings on this stuff, I'm curious..

Second, there is a 9y/o child in my household, and there firearms. 2 are loaded, pistol in the bedside safe, shotgun in the closet with a 'lifejacket' on it, and everything else is in a strong box with various types of locking devices on them..The aforementioned 9y/o has also fired ever weapon in this house (except the 12ga. and the .338 for obvious reasons), and he has been shown repeatedly the proper way to handle firearms, and knows exactly what to do should he ever come across one.

Lastly, as to being uncomfortable around persons carrying firearms...Take a look at how many Americans have been killed by motor vehicles and compare it to the number of Americans killed by firearms (I'll give you a hint, more Americans have died by motor vehicle since 1907, than have died in every armed conflict fought by America since 1776)...


Andrew

[Texas Cop]

Forgot to add, willfull failure to conceal while carrying will result in automatic license revocation and a misdemeanor charge..


Andrew

[Wasch_24]

Forgot to add, willfull failure to conceal while carrying will result in automatic license revocation and a misdemeanor charge..


AndrewThat makes perfect sense to me. If people conceal the fact then all this is moot, Mark also mentioned this earlier.


The car analogy has a flaw in my interpretation. Cars are on or near roads. Guns can be anywhere. There are certain expectations created.

[fuente]

Lastly, as to being uncomfortable around persons carrying firearms...Take a look at how many Americans have been killed by motor vehicles and compare it to the number of Americans killed by firearms (I'll give you a hint, more Americans have died by motor vehicle since 1907, than have died in every armed conflict fought by America since 1776)...


Not really the same thing. Consider this:

I work in an environment with some really nasty stuff. I mean really nasty biological hazards. There is one particular substance that if not handled properly and with great care is fatal to you and everyone around you; kind of like a weapon, right? As for the substance, think about that movie, "The Rock" and you'll have a pretty good indication of how dangerous this stuff is.

There are individuals who work in and around this stuff all day long. They have all the proper training and qualifications (similar to all of you who own weapons). I go into these areas at times, just passing thru to do something else, not dealing with said material whatsoever. I have had ZERO training concerning handling of this material (just like with weapons).

Now, how do you think I feel walking thru there? How would YOU feel? If you tell me that you would feel perfectly safe and comfortable, because those working with the material are trained, you'd be lying. I guarantee you that it would make you feel uncomfortable, because one mistake - one lapse of judgement could cause serious consequences to everyone around you...just like a weapon.

This is how I look at those carrying weapons. It makes me uncomfortable. It is nothing against anyone. I realize that there are a lot less death from guns then from car accidents, etc., but driving a car is a dynamic event; you have other drivers on the road, etc. It is not a fair comparison. Comparing driving deaths and airplane deaths is more of a fair comparison. Both are modes of transportation, both deal with other traffic, human error, security and safety.

[Wasch_24]

Dang, remind me not to trade with Fuente. :hysterica


Now there is some serious work related stress that would be going if that were me.

[Jwrussell]

Hmmm...couple of things. First off to Fuente: Thank you for such a well thought out, well articulated post on your side of this issue. I must say I can't agree on everything you say, but I can respect where you are coming from. For me, you would have to change the example to a public place. I would expect anyone coming into my home to have the respect to notify me they were carrying. At which point my request would be for them to feel free to bring the weapon in and leave it somewhere safe so they wouldn't have to leave it in the car. At that point you would be in my home. There are already weapons readily available if needed and with anyone coming armed there would be more. They would not need to be on anyone's person. But those are my rules in my house. In a public place it's not going to bother me if people are carrying. It would bother me if they were drinking and carrying, but I think we've covered that.
And in that situation, with my experience with those who carry, I'd be right at home with 50 armed folks. Yeah, there might be a hothead or in someother way ill-equipped to carry person there, but even so, it takes alot to draw a gun when you know the other person has the same ability. And with everyone else around things could be diffused well enough, IMHO.

Todd, it I'm sure varies from person to person, but your first option is always the best course of action. Money and "things" are easily replaced, your life isn't. The only reason I'd pull a firearm in that case is if I had reason to believe my life was in danger no matter what I did.

Last but not least, thanks for that post Andrew. It was not something I was willing to post without double checking, but it was another reason the story I posted earlier burned me so much. Unless the guy was a cop, I was in effect, saving him from a possible misdemeanor and revocation of his liscence. Not to say that it would have happened with 99% of the police officers out there, but what if he got the one who happens to believe no civilians should own firearms? Maybe in court he's able to get his liscence back and straighten things out, but why risk the hassle?

[Black Dog]

As for guns being a danger to everyone around them, I would like to add this. Guns do not fire all by themselves. A properly concealed firearm is completely unnoticeable to the untrained eye, and is safely and securely tucked into a holster that encompasses the trigger/trigger guard assembly. In order for the gun to fire it must be removed from the holster and someone must place their finger or other object inside the trigger guard and pull the trigger. Anyone with any kind of training (which most permit holders must have) is aware that you do not put your finger on the trigger unless you intend to shoot something. Permit holders as a group are generally stable people as is evidenced by the extremely small number of licenses that are revoked for any reason. This perceived danger is just not happening out there. When was the last time you saw a headline that a permit holder accidentally killed or injured anyone? Believe me, the news media would be all over it.

[Texas Cop]

No hunting on Sundays? wtf? ;-) Thanks for the link Mark, I'll probably browse through tonite after work....

I grew up in a violently anti-gun household...No bb-guns, no pellet guns, nothing...In fact, my mother still lectures me about owning firearms...I shot my first gun in the Boy Scouts when I was in 2nd grade, and my firearms education was continuted by my uncles, one an avid hunter, the other an Air Force vet. I purchased my first firearm at 20, and it has been a downhill slide ever since, I actually have to think long and hard before buying a box of cigars, because the new/latest revolver/auto/shotgun whatever is coming out next month.

I have been trained by military CQB instructors, LE instructors, civilian concealed carry instructors, civilian competition shooters, etc. IMO there is no such thing as too much training/instruction, and I will continute to take every class that is offered and that fits into my schedule. On a side note here, I'm looking for a good carbine/perimeter rifle course, but don't want to take the trip up to Thunder Ranch, any ideas guys?


Andrew

[Sancho Panza]

some States, Louisiana being one of the require permission of the home owner before entering with a loaded weapon

[fuente]

1.) Fuente - I can totally understand being uncomfortable around others with guns. You would be a fool not to. If I know someone has one, I keep a sharp eye on them - whether I am carrying or not. It's a natural instinct to stay out of harms way and always trust your gut.

With that said, I would be curious to know if you are comfortable handling a gun yourself?



I've never handled a gun. Maybe a BB gun when I was a kind, but that's it.

[Jwrussell]

Yep, I'm good at that Mark! :wink:

Fuente, I think the fact that you've never handled a gun speaks volumes for how you feel. There's more to it than that, because I didn't feel awkward around them BEFORE I had handled them, and in fact was eager to do so, but it's still a big factor.

Great analogy on your work place. I'd like to say that knowing the people working there were properly trained I would feel comfortable, however, the real answer is probably more like this: I'd feel comfortable if I was taking the same precations as they were. So again, it comes down to experience with the subject matter.

Mark, no I don't ask. Honestly I'd never even think about it. But if you were in my house and leaned a certain way and printed I have to say I might be a little bit perturbed. Not so much that you were carrying, but that you didn't let me know. I would never walk into another person's house carrying without their permition.

As to the story, open carry is not permited in FL. So if you aren't concealed, it can be considered open carry. (as I understand it).

[fuente]

Fuente, I think the fact that you've never handled a gun speaks volumes for how you feel. There's more to it than that, because I didn't feel awkward around them BEFORE I had handled them, and in fact was eager to do so, but it's still a big factor.

Absoulutely. It's probably the biggest factor.

As for feeling safe around the stuff I work with, well, I never feel safe and neither do the people who actually handle the stuff; because as soon as you start to feel comfortable, that's when you can make a mistake.

Not EXACTLY the same thing with a weapon, but close, for me at least.

[Wasch_24]

Accidents do happen.

[1f1fan]

I'll just jump in to touch on a couple of the previous posts here...

First off, in VA, you have to carry open in restraunts? That's pretty f-ed up...Anybody link me to the news stories/state rulings on this stuff, I'm curious..

yes that is correct. i think vcdl.org has good info (site is down now) try goodle gun restaurant ban VA.



Second, there is a 9y/o child in my household, and there firearms. 2 are loaded, pistol in the bedside safe, shotgun in the closet with a 'lifejacket' on it, and everything else is in a strong box with various types of locking devices on them..The aforementioned 9y/o has also fired ever weapon in this house (except the 12ga. and the .338 for obvious reasons), and he has been shown repeatedly the proper way to handle firearms, and knows exactly what to do should he ever come across one.

Lastly, as to being uncomfortable around persons carrying firearms...Take a look at how many Americans have been killed by motor vehicles and compare it to the number of Americans killed by firearms (I'll give you a hint, more Americans have died by motor vehicle since 1907, than have died in every armed conflict fought by America since 1776)...


Andrew

all good points. my wife is pregnant with our first son. Everything I have is locked up. I will be investing in a better safe that has a combination and key (the one I have now is just a key..not the best) and do plan on educating him on firearm safety and the responsibiliteis of having one in the house.

[fuente]

my wife is pregnant with our first son. Everything I have is locked up. I will be investing in a better safe that has a combination and key (the one I have now is just a key..not the best) and do plan on educating him on firearm safety and the responsibiliteis of having one in the house.

Congrats on the baby on the way !! You'll definately need something more than a key lock; my son is not even 2 and he has already figured out how to open my mini with the key !!!

[Sancho Panza]

just remembered, there's one Gulf Coast Herf in New Orleans where only 1 or 2 will be packin'...one of 'em will be an off duty Peace Officer...

[Jwrussell]

Man, I really hope to make it to N.O. sometime soon. Hell I don't live that far away!

[Texas Cop]

F1, the pistol safe that I use has a finger pad combination and a key backup in case the battery dies (I change it every 2months to be safe)...I cannot recall the maker, but if you are interested, I can do some research for you..


Andrew

[1f1fan]

F1, the pistol safe that I use has a finger pad combination and a key backup in case the battery dies (I change it every 2months to be safe)...I cannot recall the maker, but if you are interested, I can do some research for you..


Andrew

Andrew

I do have a small safe like the one you describe....its the one that holds the AR-15 I'm worried about!

[Texas Cop]

Gotcha....If you want to keep it accessible, those life-jacket style locks (they encompass the reciever and trigger housing) seem to work well, and the locks are easy to manipulate...I've got one on the shotgun..

Andrew

[Jwrussell]

Some great news for those of us in FL: Castle Doctrine Passed (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155303,00.html)

Didn't want to start a whole other thread on this as part of it directly applies to CCW.

[smokem94]

That is great news. Colorado has the same thing, it is called the, "make my day" law. In essence it says, that a citizen may use deadly force without the fear of prosecution, if they feel they may suffer harm from an attacker or intruder.

[Texas Cop]

In Texas, the minute you step on my property, I can use deadly force. It may take some explaining to a grand jury, but it can be done. You can also use deadly force against anybody stealing your property, if you feel that is the only way for you to recover your property...

There are 7 words that no grand jury in Texas will dispute 'I was in fear for my life'

Andrew

[Texas Cop]

In Texas, the minute you step on my property, I can use deadly force. It may take some explaining to a grand jury, but it can be done. You can also use deadly force against anybody stealing your property, if you feel that is the only way for you to recover your property...

There are 7 words that no grand jury in Texas will dispute 'I was in fear for my life'

Andrew

edit: not advocating you shoot anybody that happens to be on your property, like the neighbor who is letting their dog shit in your grass..Merely expressing the vast grey area of the laws as written..

[Sancho Panza]

'I was in fear for my life'

followed by, for me, I was just trying to stop him; I'm not that good of a shot

[RiverRat]

Good Idea, Sancho Panza.

I was taught to use the phrase "stop the threat."

"I just wanted to stop the threat."

[Sancho Panza]

even better

[1f1fan]

Good advice if anyone has to defend themself.

"I was in frear for my life"

"I was just trying to stop the threat"

I would like to add:


If questioned in detail by police please make sure you follow that by "I am going to co-operate however, I just had a very traumatic experience and wish to excersise my right to silence until I have an attorney present"

In clear cases of self defense this should not be a big issue, but you can't be too careful.

[Texas Cop]

You don't think requesting an attorney might hurt you image in front of the Grand Jury (if it goes before one)?


Andrew

[Jwrussell]

I would sure as shit hope not! If it does there is yet another HUGE problem with the system! Of course, then again, pleading the 5th is also supposed to be a neutral statement.

FWIW, no way I wouldn't IMMEDIATELY request an attourney.

[caudio51]

I just read this thread. Great discussion and very interesting.

[Texas Cop]

Yup, you drug up a gem here....


drew

[Havanaaddict]

Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6.
Yep Glock 19 when I go out of my neck of the woods!!! Hard to take care of my family if I am dead!!!

[PetersCreek]

I only carry 'em one at a time but when I do carry, it's a...

Kimber Classic Stainless 1911, .45 ACP — Primary, day-to-day, go-to gun.
H&K USP 45 Compact, .45 ACP — Alternate carry...but seeing less and less duty. Great pistol but the 1911 feels and points better.
Kahr PM9, 9mm — Alternate carry for deep concealment.
Taurus M44, .44 Mag — Gentle persuasion for big furries when I'm fly fishing.

Regarding the previous comments by people who have difficulty understanding why people like me practice CCW...

I have fire extinguishers and first aid kits in my home and in my truck. I have a tow strap and road flares in my truck that I've never used. I have fire/smoke/CO detectors in my home that have never gone off but I would've installed them even if they weren't required. I have insurance on my home and truck and would carry it even if it weren't required.

People don't always base prudent measures on the statistical probability (or improbability) of an event but rather, on what's at stake should the event come to pass. Bad things sometimes happen to good people and that's not limited to the "bad neighborhoods." Being prepared is not the same thing as being paranoid or fearful. I and other responsible practitioners of lawful CCW hope never to use our firearms...but if we ever do need them, we're really going to need them.

[Fox]

I only carry 'em one at a time but when I do carry, it's a...

Kimber Classic Stainless 1911, .45 ACP — Primary, day-to-day, go-to gun.
H&K USP 45 Compact, .45 ACP — Alternate carry...but seeing less and less duty. Great pistol but the 1911 feels and points better.
Kahr PM9, 9mm — Alternate carry for deep concealment.
Taurus M44, .44 Mag — Gentle persuasion for big furries when I'm fly fishing.

Regarding the previous comments by people who have difficulty understanding why people like me practice CCW...

I have fire extinguishers and first aid kits in my home and in my truck. I have a tow strap and road flares in my truck that I've never used. I have fire/smoke/CO detectors in my home that have never gone off but I would've installed them even if they weren't required. I have insurance on my home and truck and would carry it even if it weren't required.

People don't always base prudent measures on the statistical probability (or improbability) of an event but rather, on what's at stake should the event come to pass. Bad things sometimes happen to good people and that's not limited to the "bad neighborhoods." Being prepared is not the same thing as being paranoid or fearful. I and other responsible practitioners of lawful CCW hope never to use our firearms...but if we ever do need them, we're really going to need them.

Brett, that was a superb commentary on the reasons for concealed carry. :thumbsup:

[caudio51]

That was a very good way to put it. Some points I never thought of in that manner.

[MCsommerreid]

I wholeheartedly agree.

Question, because I honestly don't know.

If one has a concealed carry permit, are there rules/regulations about drinking or using drugs that will lead to immdiate revocation of the priveledge?

I think in the status quo for all 50 states is (usually) over 0.08 BAC and/or use of illegal drugs means revocation of license, illegal carry/possesion of a firearm charge, and possibly a felony stuck in there somewhere. Felony, and no more CCW for you ever.

Some states are really strict, with 0.01 being the highest legal limit for carrying and drinking, and some you aren't even allowed to drink at all if you carry.

[indyrob]

I'm curious about something: For those of you that do carry weapons, is it because you are into the hobby, or because you are generally concerned that the areas you live in or frequent are so dangerous that carrying a weapon is warranted?


I've had the unfortunate experience where I had to use my weapon once. I wouldn't be posting right now if I didn't have it on me.

No specifics...just commenting on the question at hand.

[BkSmoke]

I'm sorry but I think Sancho is completely insane for stating that he would use his weapons protecting his car, that is ridiculous. A car is a possession and can be replaced if you have insurance and is not worthy of taking a human life under any circumstances. That is why there should be stricter guidelines before allowing certain people a license to carry, he carries 3 guns and would kill you if you tried to steal his car. Imagine if your teenage son was pulling a childhood prank with this guy he is the type that would come outside and shoot him and think he was right. I know "Guns don't kill people, people kill people " well we should limit who are allowed to have guns.

[cvm4]

I know Kendall (SP) personally and you're taking this way out of proportion. I look at it that the teenage son shouldn't be fucking around with anyone else's car.

[Terrasco]

About six years ago I was working in Central Texas. I met the local state representative named Suzanne Gratia Hupp. In 1991 she was eating at a Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen with her parents, after a doctor's appointment. She normally cared a gun in her purse, but had put it in the glove compartment while visiting the hospital.

A man drove his truck into the restaurant and began shooting people. She had time to grab for her purse and realize the gun wasn't there. Her parents were both killed. Realizing that she would have been able to save her parents had she been armed, she led the fight in Texas for concealed handgun permits.

[BkSmoke]

Well CVM4, if you have children and they make mistakes like normal children do, and they got shot and killed for those childhish mistakes how would you feel? The point is no possession is worth killing another human being over, period, end of story. To suggest otherwise is completely ridiculous.

[cvm4]

Well CVM4, if you have children and they make mistakes like normal children do, and they got shot and killed for those childhish mistakes how would you feel? The point is no possession is worth killing another human being over, period, end of story. To suggest otherwise is completely ridiculous.

Can't imagine pulling a firearm on someone for anything other than being in fear for my life, limb or property like car, or home.

Last time I checked, pulling a gun on someone is not the same as shooting them. I'm sure your child will be scared shitless and run away. He'll more then likely learn a big lesson from this and that is to not mess with other people's property. And secondly, I would ask where the parents are in this situation? They should have taught the child better or he/she wouldn't be in this predicament. My dad's belt always kept my ass in line. That was always the common factor when I was a kid. Do this and get whipped or don't do it and save my ass. Hmmmmmm...That wasn't a hard one for me.

[BkSmoke]

CVM4,
Your way of teaching a child a lesson is pointing a loaded gun in their face? This is why we need stricter gun control, do you have any idea how insane you sound? I don't care where the parents are and even if they didn't teach the child any better that doesn't give you the right to threaten his life. Most people carry guns because they have a huge inferiority complex, there is no need to carry 3 loaded weapons unless you live in Iraq.

[cvm4]

CVM4,
Your way of teaching a child a lesson is pointing a loaded gun in their face? This is why we need stricter gun control, do you have any idea how insane you sound? I don't care where the parents are and even if they didn't teach the child any better that doesn't give you the right to threaten his life. Most people carry guns because they have a huge inferiority complex, there is no need to carry 3 loaded weapons unless you live in Iraq.

Yes we need stricter gun control for criminals and taking black market guns away from the market. Stricter gun control does nothing but take away the power from the people and make us rely on a LEO that could be 5, 10 or 15 minutes away. No telling what could happen by then.

A teenager is not a child. He/she should have enough common sense to know what's right and wrong. Therefore, they should accept the consequences of anything stupid they decide to do. Whatever that may be. You need to focus on the criminals out there with guns instead of law abiding citizens that have permits to carry.

[PetersCreek]

CVM4,
Most people carry guns because they have a huge inferiority complex...

You sir, are profoundly ignorant of fact...and your advocacy of stricter gun control (which in reality is "people control") does more to suggest that you yourself suffer from significant insecurities.

[BkSmoke]

I can't have an intelligent conversation with those who think pointing a loaded gun at a 13,14,15 or 16 year old child is justified when trying to protect ones car. If you feel the need to carry 3 firearms then you should move to a better neighborhood immediately. Mr. Creek, I have 1 question for you. Do you advocate pointing a loaded gun at a 13,14,15 or 16 year old because you are protecting your car?

[caudio51]

BK you need to keep in mind what areas of the country you are speaking to. I agree with both sides but understand where you are coming from. Here in the tri-state area guns are seen as a problem more than other parts of the country. Out west/south guns are a way of life. Kids are brought up on proper gun care, control and use. Just something to keep in the back of your head.

End of my side comment.

[PetersCreek]

I can't have an intelligent conversation with those who think pointing a loaded gun at a 13,14,15 or 16 year old child is justified when trying to protect ones car. If you feel the need to carry 3 firearms then you should move to a better neighborhood immediately. Mr. Creek, I have 1 question for you. Do you advocate pointing a loaded gun at a 13,14,15 or 16 year old because you are protecting your car?

Your uninformed comment had no direct relation to the pointing of a gun at teenagers. You made a bigoted, stereotypical judgement about those who avail themselves of the right to bear arms for lawful purposes. I'll not follow any red herrings from that point at this time.

[BkSmoke]

Thanks Caudio,
I agree but there are maniacs as you can clearly see who believe they are justified in pointing a gun at a teenager when protecting their car. I made a judgement about certain people on this board who have made it clear that they would have no problem pointing a loaded weapon at a teenager for the purpose of protecting their car. Mr.Creek I suggest you read before you make an assumption of what my beliefs are. Now Mr. Creek, I'll ask you again and if you are afraid to answer because you truly believe you would be justified in pointing a loaded weapon at a teenager then I will understand. Do you advocate pointing a loaded gun at a 13,14,15 or 16 year old because you are protecting your car? This is the basis for which I have made my prior statement about needing stricter gun control, if you believe you would be justified then you certainly have no business carrying or owning a weapon in this country.

[BkSmoke]

Tom,
As you know having a car stolen from you is the norm where we reside. We either have had it happen to us personally or know someone who has had it happen to them. I couldn't imagine coming outside and pointing a gun at the thief even if he was an adult career criminal. We have insurance for those reasons and to put yourself in a situation where you could possibly take a human life over a possession that can and will be replaced is completey heinous and unconscionable.
Dex

[caudio51]

Sorry Dex but I have to disagree. If I had a weapon and someone was stealing my car, you better believe he is getting a weapon pointed at him.

I have insurance, but he better have better insurance for even thinking of touching my car.

[BkSmoke]

That's nuts Tom,
If the criminal says FUCK YOU! Then I guess you are going to shoot and kill him. So then I gues its worth it that you saved your car which will be totally worthless in 10 years and you ended another human beings life? I know you're just typing with emotion, I would be angry also but the reality is no matter how angry we become it doesn't justify taking another human beings life.
Dex

[caudio51]

I think many people would be quite scarred if a weapon was pointed at them. Would I fire the weapon at them, no I probably wouldn't. That was my initial point. The weapon acting as a detterent (sp?)

Would I then secure the weapon and seek some other means of confronting them? Yes.

I just could not watch someone take all my stuff/my car without doing anything.

[BkSmoke]

You know what they say,"NEVER point a gun at someone unless you are willing to use it!". I'm not saying you stand there like a fool if someone is stealing your car and you are witnessing it happen in front of your eyes. I'm sure everyone would make an effort to stop the criminal by shouting, contacting the police etc... but Tom, to kill someone over a car that eventually will be totally worthless is crazy. If a criminal enters your home that is a different story, you are protecting your life and your families life and lethal force would indeed be justified, but a car Tom? How many cars have you had in your lifetime? Were any of them worth killing another human being over? It's just a car, you replace it like you replace clothes, jewelry etc. I don't know if you are religious at all but do you think when you are standing outside the pearly gates and God asks you, "Tom, why did you break my 6th commandment?". Well Almighty Father, this guy was trying to steal my car so I shot him, lol.
Dex

P.S. I remember as a 12 year old me and a group of my friends used to ride dirt bicycles, Mongoose, Diamond backs, Pk Rippers etc.. A few of my friends would take the silver caps off of cars rims and put them on their bikes rims because they were extremely hard to find. I just don't think it would be right for CVM to come out and blow our heads off for a stupid childish mistake.

[caudio51]

I think many people would be quite scarred if a weapon was pointed at them. Would I fire the weapon at them, no I probably wouldn't. That was my initial point. The weapon acting as a detterent (sp?)



See bold

[Black Dog]

As you know having a car stolen from you is the norm where we reside.
Dex, just some food for thought. Has it ever occurred to you that the reason this is the norm is that gun laws are already so strict in NY and NJ that criminals know they won't meet any armed resistance?

[BkSmoke]

You're probably right,
But those same criminals face the stiffest penalties in the country for carrying an illegal weapon. In New York City it is definitely better to have stricter gun control laws, I grew up here and been here all my life it's just my opinion so I'm not advocating it where you live.

[PetersCreek]

Thanks Caudio,
Mr.Creek I suggest you read before you make an assumption of what my beliefs are...

I suggest you do the same. I was addressing your grossly inaccurate generalization about gun owners...and only that. If I cannot draw conclusions about your beliefs from your own statements about your beliefs, then reading or re-reading them is of little use.

[cvm4]

Tom,
As you know having a car stolen from you is the norm where we reside. We either have had it happen to us personally or know someone who has had it happen to them. I couldn't imagine coming outside and pointing a gun at the thief even if he was an adult career criminal. We have insurance for those reasons and to put yourself in a situation where you could possibly take a human life over a possession that can and will be replaced is completey heinous and unconscionable.
Dex

Having a car stolen from where I live in NOT the norm. Hence why I wouldn't hesitate to pull a gun on kid/child/teenager to scare them off. All I can say is that people have been killed for a lot less than a car. It's their decision...

I don't know if you are religious at all but do you think when you are standing outside the pearly gates and God asks you, "Tom, why did you break my 6th commandment?". Well Almighty Father, this guy was trying to steal my car so I shot him, lol.
Dex


Actually what I believe is that Jesus died for our sins so that the 10 Commandments aren't needed anymore. That was the Old Testament way. We don't have to go through rituals and killing calfs and goats anymore in order to wipe away our sins. Our communication is through Jesus to God. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

I just don't think it would be right for CVM to come out and blow our heads off for a stupid childish mistake.

Please keep sounding ignorant :lookaroun

[BkSmoke]

[QUOTE=cvm4]Having a car stolen from where I live in NOT the norm. Hence why I wouldn't hesitate to pull a gun on k