What are yalls thoughts on esquisicat?
- Thread starter elia.jon1
- Start date
orangedog
Navin R Johnson
Would you please provide links? Would be great to read as I don't recall seeing them, ilo the usual heuristic debate.
cartisdm
Young & Eager
I know Ron isn't a fan of the KL, and that his right to do so. But even if the KL and heartfelt are chemically different, I don't see the problem. It's pretty obvious that the KL hold a steady RH in humidors so why does it matter? Going back to my cooler example, putting sheets of ceder inside a coolider isn't the same as surrounded your sticks with 1'' thick walls of ceder. Do they accomplish the same thing? Yup...
orangedog
Navin R Johnson
I'm not sure it does - I'm kind of being snarky for no reason.
It would just be nice to see some facts presented... Instead of the usual (best Ahhhhhnold voice) "Kitty litter is better!" "No, beads are better!" type discussion. I'm guilty of doing it, but I'm trying not to anymore, and want to encourage others to research/present the science behind their opinions - not just on KL, but in all aspects of the hobby. Maybe I'm in left field though... for some that may detract from the fun.
To the point, I have not seen anything that shows kl is different that beads (excl the HCM beads), and my google energy meter has recently emptied. Need to recharge it...
cartisdm
Young & Eager
Well, if I had the resources I'd be more than happy to do an experiment. Sadly I have no room for such a thing and I'm probably too dumb to be able to record my results and interpret them anyway. Luckily this is the interwebz and there are lots of people who love doing this! Any takers? :grin:
I am really not opposed to kitty litter. I just object to it being declared the same as Heartfelt beads because it is absolutely not the same. Getting KL to work like Heartfelt beads does not make it the same. The simplist way to explain the difference is that Heartfelt beads contain a salt solution that locks them to a certain humidity level, just like Bovedas, and the science behind the salt test.
The science behind using KL is called conditioning your beads. Totally different from the science behind Heartfelt.
Notice that I did not say that KL does not work, I just 100% correctly stated that they are not the same.
The science behind using KL is called conditioning your beads. Totally different from the science behind Heartfelt.
Notice that I did not say that KL does not work, I just 100% correctly stated that they are not the same.
cartisdm
Young & Eager
Seems fair enough to me :thumbsup:
TravelingJ
Banned
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There is no way I would every use kitty litter to humidify my sticks. Period. If I can't afford to buy something that isn't pissed on for a living, I need to get a new hobby. Sorry, I'm not going to go into a 4 hour post on it, but when it costs less than a box of cigars to buy some of the best beads made, no way. I don't need to hoard or collect so bad that I eat ramen noodles to buy cigars, and I'm not buying kitty litter to buy them either.
here is an example of the difference. take your KL and 65% Heartfelt beads, and store them at a 50% humidity level for 1 month.
because of the salt in the bead, you will still have a 65% bead. just add water as instructed, and they are as good as new.
your KL will now be a 50% bead because you have reconditioned it too 50%. if stored at 30% humidity, you now have a 30% bead. so now, getting the 30% beads up to 70% will require more water added than getting the 50% KL up to 70%
because of the salt in the bead, you will still have a 65% bead. just add water as instructed, and they are as good as new.
your KL will now be a 50% bead because you have reconditioned it too 50%. if stored at 30% humidity, you now have a 30% bead. so now, getting the 30% beads up to 70% will require more water added than getting the 50% KL up to 70%
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Craig Mac
BoM 4/10 7/11 12/14
I love the KL threads, personally I am too lazy to train anything relating to humidity so I just go with the beads and call it a day. If you want to save money and go with KL that is your choice. The ease of use with beads is why so many prefer it as it works right out of the box without any "training". If it works for you then so be it, no need to get all douchey about things.
Here was the scientific LAST word on KL......or...
http://www.botl.org/community/forums/showthread.php?t=8580&
or....LMAO....maybe not...
http://www.botl.org/community/forums/showthread.php?t=8580&
or....LMAO....maybe not...
orangedog
Navin R Johnson
Alright, let the "douchey-ness" continue:
http://cool.conservation-us.org/waac/wn/wn15/wn15-1/wn15-108.html#fn1
http://talasonline.com/photos/instructions/silica_gel_FAQ.pdf
http://www.apsnyc.com/uploads/Demystifying Silica Gel.pdf
The question I need to look up now is whether or not kitty litter is regular density or not.
If I have time and aren't bored with other items, maybe I'll pull quotes and put a nice summary together. Interestingly, a key takeaway, if I'm reading this right (warrants a re-read) is that it takes more kitty litter to do the same job as beads - seems consistent with some BOTL's posts. I love it when experience and science agree.
http://cool.conservation-us.org/waac/wn/wn15/wn15-1/wn15-108.html#fn1
http://talasonline.com/photos/instructions/silica_gel_FAQ.pdf
http://www.apsnyc.com/uploads/Demystifying Silica Gel.pdf
The question I need to look up now is whether or not kitty litter is regular density or not.
If I have time and aren't bored with other items, maybe I'll pull quotes and put a nice summary together. Interestingly, a key takeaway, if I'm reading this right (warrants a re-read) is that it takes more kitty litter to do the same job as beads - seems consistent with some BOTL's posts. I love it when experience and science agree.
orangedog
Navin R Johnson
More "douchey-ness":
http://kindtrading.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008840256286/pdtl/Pet-toilet/1039992555/Silica-Gel-Cat-Litter.htm?source=RSS_Hd
Looks like 400 - 500g/L on this type of KL, while I think "regular density" is 680g/L (noted in two of the links).
http://kindtrading.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008840256286/pdtl/Pet-toilet/1039992555/Silica-Gel-Cat-Litter.htm?source=RSS_Hd
Looks like 400 - 500g/L on this type of KL, while I think "regular density" is 680g/L (noted in two of the links).
How awesome is that!!! The title of the paper above is Demystifying Silica Gel.....here's a c/p from that article:
"Differences between the adsorption and desorption M values are due to hysteresis, which occurs when the EMC/RH isotherm for adsorption and desorption are not the same (Fig. 6). In order to account for hysteresis, it is necessary to repeatedly cycle silica gel through the RH range of interest until the moisture content at the top and bottom of the RH range become constant and repeatable (Fig. 7). However, if it is not possible to experimentally determine the M value within a specific RH range, it can be approximated from the silica gel EMC/RH isotherms for adsorption and desorption."
If that isn't demystifying, then what is????? LOL
orangedog
Navin R Johnson
TravelingJ
Banned
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Reading into that second link, and assuming kitty litter is regular density (because it probably IS the most readily available) then its stating that kitty litter isn't what you would want to use.
I guess I still don't get the point in arguing it. $100 in HCM beads has performed better for me than $50 in Heartfelt beads ever did. I have a hard time believing cat piss absorber is going to outperform that. Even if it IS going to be any better...it's $100. That's what...10 premium cigars? Zero effort in training? 100% peace of mind? To me that is MORE than worth for my hobby. And I don't have to worry about stray cats taking a leak on my cigars.
Craig Mac
BoM 4/10 7/11 12/14
Amen J, amen.... now if we could get all 9 of these KL threads merged....