I'd tend to bet that we're a very small percentage of a cigar maker's sales. If you think about the sheer number of people who smoke once in a while, it's probably astounding. Then factor in those who smoke somewhat regularly, but who don't take the time to research/learn/experiment, etc (for example, my brother smokes a couple to 5 cigars a week and he wouldn't know a Tatuaje from a CH from a DE, and he's much more likely to buy a 60+RG cigar than a 40RG or smaller). I see guys in the shop all the time ripping their way through monster cigars.
Narrow Ring Gauge Practicalities
- Thread starter ssaka
- Start date
The demography of sales is such an odd beast. We just don't see that on the west coast, and we consistently have to sink the 60+ rg cigars into brand samplers to move them. You know who would be an awesome group to contribute to this conversation? Famous-smoke. I wonder what percentage of sales the BOTL and online community are relative to the everyday walkin.
Very informative. I have always shied away from some of the very small RG and opted to go for low 50's RG. I do understand that the narrow RG will have superior flavor I was just concerned that the draw would suffer. I have been with this group for a few months now and having seen the love for the smaller RG that all the brothers have has given me a new perspective. Thanks for all the info Steve and everyone else.
I'm still new enough that I like to take peoples suggestions and buy a few in any given vitola. I've had a few coronas that I've really enjoyed, but I've also enjoyed a few 60+ (though I don't prefer them). I don't really think that it being a smaller cigar would keep me from buying, but after this post I definitely won't use the price to determine what vitola I go for. Thank you for this information. I love learning more about cigars.
A great post very enlightening. Being a newb for the past year I was drawn to try fat ring gauges. They have a lot of allure in terms of their heft & how they feel in your hand. And they seem to promise big flavor as well. Thankfully I figured out the opposite was often true & started trying diff sizes pretty quick.
What also helped push me along was burn issues with some of the higher rg's, and needing to cut down on my smoke time. Ironically many of the higher quality smaller rg's I have tried lately seem to have very long smoke times provided I puff optimally .
What also helped push me along was burn issues with some of the higher rg's, and needing to cut down on my smoke time. Ironically many of the higher quality smaller rg's I have tried lately seem to have very long smoke times provided I puff optimally .
Great post, incredibly informative. It explains a lot. The big RG phenomenon has always been a complete mystery to me. I always speculated that it had something to do with a cooler burning temperature, believing narrower RGs burn generally about ten degrees or so hotter. Now I learn it was a market driven thing. I much prefer ring gauges 48 & WAY under unless we're talking box pressed or figurado. The modern day jawbreaker, a regrettable trend, is inelegant and just plain uncomfortable. As Goldilocks might've said if she smoked cigars, a vitola like the Marevas is just right
Last edited:
Just got back from 10 days in Nica, doin' what I do, so I am bit behind…
Let me see if I can answer this…
#1 - "thin" leaves have nothing to do with anything - the texture and thickness of the leaves needed to create a blend are what is used regardless of girth. So the length is the key, but not so much when it comes to the filler as almost all filler leaves are of adequate length to make a long filler stick of 6+ inches. The issue is wrapper length given how it must be cut and in particular outside cuts vs tenderloin cuts tend to be shorter - so shorter outer cuts or short tenderloin cuts are ideal for making shorter sticks. Still a maker would prefer to make robustos over coronas, but you can't always do it.
#2 - you can not make the same blend in a smaller girth identical to those in a larger one - 41 to 44 ring gauge cigars can only accommodate 3 leaves of tripa while a 52rg smoke can accommodate 5 leaves - so to make the a 4 tobacco filler blend in small ring the bunched must split one or more leaves. And even doing this proportionally does not result in the same blend flavor and aroma wise due to the higher combustion temp when the stick is being smoked.
#3 - everyone always thinks of "labor" cost when it relates to the cigar making to the actual torcedor, but this is really a very minor part of the operation - each cigar leaf is handled and tended no less than 75 times prior to it reaching the roller's table… growing, harvesting, sorting, curing, sorting, wetting, fermenting, sorting, drying, baling, sorting, stripping, sorting, wetting, padding, and on and on… every leaf requires the same attention. This is the labor cost, not the few minutes it takes to make it into a cigar. IMO great cigars are "made" long before they are rolled..
Given market realities, it is far more profitable to make as many large format cigars as possible.
BR,
STS
Last edited:
Amortized isn't really a correct word to describe what I meant, maybe someone with an accounting background can provide an another term that means the systematic allocation of the overall costs materials into a variety of products to achieve the maximum efficiency of their use to generate profit.
As for "I would assume the 'experienced' and somewhat fickle cigar smoking community (such as us here) purchase the majority of a maker's product line," you assume incorrectly.
The online cigar community in no way whatsoever represents the bulk of the cigar consuming public in their likes, dislikes, brand preferences, buy habits or price points. Is it the most fervent? Yes. Is it the most educated? Yes. But in the grand scheme of the handmade cigar business and its market, we cigar geeks represent a very small part of the economics of the business.
I know some cigar board guys get pissed off when folks like me in the biz say this, but the truth is the truth. Think about it, if we really were the the driving force of the economics of the industry don't you think every major cigar maker would interact online on a near daily basis? And writing some FB/Instagram/Twitter "look at me" thing doesn't count, I am talking about actually informing, educating, and conversing with us.
I am telling you flat out, the very few that do so, do it because they themselves are cigar geeks.
STS
'just another cigar geek'
Fwiw, it was created by consumer demand… very few makers saw any merit in making such giant cigars, but LGC Series R and its success spawned other even larger ring formats, and in turn their sales grew which then prompted us in the industry to respond in kind. Ultimately it is a business, so if customers are demanding these behemoths we make them, but there really isn't many actual cigar makers who smoke these cigars themselves or understand why so many consumers like them… Now the fact that they are more profitable is great, but honestly cigar makers wouldn't make them if consumers stopped buying them.
STS
Btw, one more sidebar on this topic, I think big rings are have enjoyed popularity not only because of the dollar value issue, but also they smoke much milder… as the trend blend wise has been to create stronger ligas, there really hasn't been much focus on mild-medium new cigar brands over the last decade or so, however the 60+ ringer by their very nature happen to provide a milder smoking experience.
STS
STS
Thanks for the replies. I do agree, most cigar smokers don't post on forums. However, I'd be willing to bet there is a substantial portion of cigar smokers that either use Google or lurk on forums (read content without being a member or posting).
A small vocal minority can definitely change things. If smaller ring smokes are better, we have to continue to proclaim that truth.
When I choose a cigar the fact that a 60rg is more profitable to a producer than a 42rg has no bearing whatsoever on my decision making process. I'm going to smoke the cigar that provides a better smoking experience and that is unequivocally and resoundingly going to be the 42rg.
This is the age of the internet. Producers of all types of goods for many decades had the upper hand in driving the conversation. They had access to TV, print, and point of sale marketing avenues to drive their message to consumers and we blindingly followed suit. The result was a marketplace filled with inefficient, mediocre, lackluster products that consumers were perfectly happy with because we didn't know something better existed.
And producers were all the more happy to keep making them. Gillette's razor blade model is a perfect example. It started with 2 blades, then 3 was better, then 4, now you gotta have 5! But guess what the kicker is, yep, 1 blade is all you need and actually provides better shaves.
The marketplace for cigars today is already suffering from this phenomenon. Its getting much tougher to find nice vitolas. We as consumers have to continue to use these new communication avenues such as blogs, forums, YouTube, or any other medium to drive our message.
Let's make this a cigar smoker's marketplace and bring lonsdales, coronas, and lanceros into the limelight where they deserve to be.
A small vocal minority can definitely change things. If smaller ring smokes are better, we have to continue to proclaim that truth.
When I choose a cigar the fact that a 60rg is more profitable to a producer than a 42rg has no bearing whatsoever on my decision making process. I'm going to smoke the cigar that provides a better smoking experience and that is unequivocally and resoundingly going to be the 42rg.
This is the age of the internet. Producers of all types of goods for many decades had the upper hand in driving the conversation. They had access to TV, print, and point of sale marketing avenues to drive their message to consumers and we blindingly followed suit. The result was a marketplace filled with inefficient, mediocre, lackluster products that consumers were perfectly happy with because we didn't know something better existed.
And producers were all the more happy to keep making them. Gillette's razor blade model is a perfect example. It started with 2 blades, then 3 was better, then 4, now you gotta have 5! But guess what the kicker is, yep, 1 blade is all you need and actually provides better shaves.
The marketplace for cigars today is already suffering from this phenomenon. Its getting much tougher to find nice vitolas. We as consumers have to continue to use these new communication avenues such as blogs, forums, YouTube, or any other medium to drive our message.
Let's make this a cigar smoker's marketplace and bring lonsdales, coronas, and lanceros into the limelight where they deserve to be.
Craig Mac
BoM 4/10 7/11 12/14
2 things....
Steve, I hear what you are saying, but you'll never hear a guy in a shop tell you he is smoking that 60+ because it's more mild. I see these guys everyday in our shops thinking they are badass smoking their 80 ring gauge.... No pinkies out smoking those, bro. Haha
And Le Buzz, I could not agree with you more. But unless that voice is our wallets, it wont change much. At ipcpr last year I walked around a both and the guy was talking about new Cigars and line extensions and I must have heard "6x60" a dozen times and not once did I hear corona, lonsdale or lancero. Unfortunately, they favor what sells and not what guys like us want.
Steve, I hear what you are saying, but you'll never hear a guy in a shop tell you he is smoking that 60+ because it's more mild. I see these guys everyday in our shops thinking they are badass smoking their 80 ring gauge.... No pinkies out smoking those, bro. Haha
And Le Buzz, I could not agree with you more. But unless that voice is our wallets, it wont change much. At ipcpr last year I walked around a both and the guy was talking about new Cigars and line extensions and I must have heard "6x60" a dozen times and not once did I hear corona, lonsdale or lancero. Unfortunately, they favor what sells and not what guys like us want.
Last edited:
This is what I've tried to explain to music forum, car forum, and other forum denizens. The populators of forums usually are a niche group of hard core guys. Their taste is often outside of the mainstream because of their hardcore dedication to a subject. They do not represent the average consumer. They also have little impact on the general purchasing public. If they did Ariana Grande and Taylor Swift wouldn't be selling gold and platinum albums. The best selling cars wouldn't be Camrys and Accords.
The same applies to cigars. People talk to their B&M guy and then go from there. Most of them could care less if the filler is grown in Ometepe or Kentucky. They want something that looks good, taste good, and feels good in the hand. Plus, a lot of guys smoking cigars attach a lot of ego to the smoke because there is still a bit of mystique and prestige about cigars. So, a bigger stick is better in their mind because it imparts more class, prestige, and power upon the smoker. A 6 x 60 says, "I'm somebody important and cool." There is another group that views smoking a cigar as asserting their manhood. So, a bigger stick represents being more "alpha." They don't give a crap about maximizing the green tea and dark cherry flavor of their cigar. They want to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger and to them that means a bigger stick.
The guys studying the minutia don't even come close to driving the currents of the mainstream. Forum readers will rarely be receptive to the idea that their dedication isn't some how recognized or taken in to consideration by manufacturers.
First off, thanks for such great insight into the industry and process. However, am I the only one missing something as far as Saka explaining large rg, yet I've seen very very few, if any 60rg de's? Were the innovative infused leaves in the acids and kfc, a way to circumvent giant rg? Only one I can think of is the muwat.
Craig Mac
BoM 4/10 7/11 12/14
They did add the Acid Kuba Grande end of 2013 and JdN (which DE distributes) has a few 60's outside of MUWAT....but yeah... Not too many 60's in DE cigars.
Dear Sr. Saka, Maestro, Thank you very much for being so generous and sharing your knowledge. I bemoan the fact that, despite so much ink being spilled in the cigar press, so much remains a total mystery about the making of cigars. I can understand the lack of transparency, the makers view a lot of this stuff as proprietary, and guard it with the zealousness that Coca Cola guards its secret formula. The problem for cigar geeks is that we want to know about which varieties of tobacco were used, which primings, what the pertinent terroirs were, what the vintages used were., and even whether the rollers had to buy their own toilet paper at the factory. Of course we get very little to none of this info. For NC sticks the boxes aren't even date coded. I guess that's why I like some of the vintages of Litto Gomez' sticks, the ones where you know the years of the cosechas used.. That's also why I like some years of Pete Johnson's La Verite. That's also why I liked TESA's experiment where they provided puritos of different tobacco varieties and primings. How can one really be an aficionado and be so completely in the dark at the same time. To be an aficionado you have to know things, right? If cigar smoking is to be a thinking man's hobby, it has to involve more than just dumbly sticking a wad of tobacco in ones pie hole and firing it up., no questions asked. I feel that as hobbyists we are just barely scratching the surface of what cigar culture is about. A garden variety veguero probably forgets more than most self-styled sophisticated smokers will ever know about cigars and black tobacco.
Last edited:
Thanks, Mikenice81