creating a smooth blend

Gdaddy said:

The bitter taste is what I detest the most and if it starts out bitter it usually remains bitter no matter how long it's aged. This problem should be addressed but it's not. The focus of the cigar in this forum seems to be solely on the appearance. There is little to no effort/research/experimentation to smooth out the problem. (pun intended)

It's not that hard to roll a decent looking, good burning stick. Then, when it tastes bad, everyone thinks it's the fault of the "blend" of tobacco. Need to figure out the "blend", buy more tobacco but... Oh, but how they look so pretty! (Most taste like crap.)

This is a backwards approach. This whole cigar rolling thing is NOT about how good the cigar looks. It's ALL about flavor and smoking enjoyment and that should be the main focal point of this whole deal.

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Everybody has their opinion. Here's mine.

As a novice roller, I must walk before I can run. Before I can experiment in blending in any meaningful way, I must be able to consistently roll a stick that is of proper construction to draw and burn consistently. Not because they are "pretty" but because it removes variables. Poor burn and draw alters the taste. And just by coincidence, properly constructed sticks happen to look good too. I believe the discussions on looks here on the forums are because the taste post feature has not yet been completely implemented.

Now, excuse me while I go create a cigar beauty contest thread

ras_oscar said:

Everybody has their opinion. Here's mine.

As a novice roller, I must walk before I can run. Before I can experiment in blending in any meaningful way, I must be able to consistently roll a stick that is of proper construction to draw and burn consistently. Not because they are "pretty" but because it removes variables. Poor burn and draw alters the taste. And just by coincidence, properly constructed sticks happen to look good too. I believe the discussions on looks here on the forums are because the taste post feature has not yet been completely implemented.

Now, excuse me while I go create a cigar beauty contest thread

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You're eluding to something not mentioned. A well constructed cigar will have a much better flavor than a poorly rolled one using the same tobacco.

Mine are what I call "well rolled" in that they burn pretty sharp, some razor sharp. I'll settle for the burn to be pretty good.
But if it's too loose, too tight, constructed such that it canoes or tunnels then the flavor will be off to horrible. If the burn gets too wonky then that will have a deleterious affect on flavor, as well. Well rolled to me, doesn't mean they have to look like a cigar shop stogie. Just that it should burn well. If it looks good, that's a bonus. For me, and only me mind you, I like 'em to look good, but they don't have to.

So to support what you said. I AGREE.

I have less burn problems with my home rolls than I do with the commercial sticks I smoke, so I guess I'm no longer a novice (?).

ras_oscar said:

Everybody has their opinion. Here's mine.

As a novice roller, I must walk before I can run. Before I can experiment in blending in any meaningful way, I must be able to consistently roll a stick that is of proper construction to draw and burn consistently. Not because they are "pretty" but because it removes variables. Poor burn and draw alters the taste. And just by coincidence, properly constructed sticks happen to look good too. I believe the discussions on looks here on the forums are because the taste post feature has not yet been completely implemented.

Now, excuse me while I go create a cigar beauty contest thread

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As Tim Torres(Cuban roller) once said (and I believe he's right)..." a poorly rolled cigar using good tobacco will always be a better smoke than a well rolled cigar using lesser tobacco".

Gdaddy said:

As Tim Torres(Cuban roller) once said (and I believe he's right)..." a poorly rolled cigar using good tobacco will always be a better smoke than a well rolled cigar using lesser tobacco".

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quoted above:
"You're eluding to something not mentioned. A well constructed cigar will have a much better flavor than a poorly rolled one using the same tobacco."

Dominican56 said:

quoted above:
"You're eluding to something not mentioned. A well constructed cigar will have a much better flavor than a poorly rolled one using the same tobacco."

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I'm responding directly to the title of this thread 'creating a smooth blend' and the best way to get there is by using smooth/better tobacco. You can't get there by way of improving construction and making the cigar look pretty. If the tobacco is harsh then nothing you can do during construction will change that characteristic and that is the point of Tim Torres. He is trying to enlighten people to the importance of good flavored tobacco and stop focusing on the construction. "a poorly made cigar using good tobacco is still a good smoke" .

You can't polish a turd.

Gdaddy said:

I'm responding directly to the title of this thread 'creating a smooth blend' and the best way to get there is by using smooth/better tobacco. You can't get there by way of improving construction and making the cigar look pretty. If the tobacco is harsh then nothing you can do during construction will change that characteristic and that is the point of Tim Torres. He is trying to enlighten people to the importance of good flavored tobacco and stop focusing on the construction. "a poorly made cigar using good tobacco is still a good smoke" .

You can't polish a turd.

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True about bad leaf. The point is there are other factors to cause a blend to not be good. I agree tho, bad leaf is the biggest issue.

Incidentally, I’m looking forward to trying the mojo recipe you suggested. I like it in its simplicity.

Besides good construction and quality leave an other important factor is aging !
We want to compare our cigars with 10 $ + sticks, but those cigars are rolled with 3-4 years aged tobacco and then let the cigars rest for another 2-6 months rest.
So that means that you have to age your tobacco for 2+ years.

Wow! I just watched this video from the Mojo thread ( ). This is news to me. I have read dozens of books and watched hundreds of videos on cigars and tobacco production. Never have I heard that "flavoring" the tobacco was part of the process. Is this common? Do farms do this to most tobacco? Is it done throughout the Central America tobacco regions? Is it done only on poor quality leaf or do the big name companies buy this "flavored" leaf?

Lots of questions. I thought I new a fair bit about cigar tobacco production but now I feel like an idiot. Any enlightenment would be appreciated.

Bruce T. said:

Wow! I just watched this video from the Mojo thread ( ). This is news to me. I have read dozens of books and watched hundreds of videos on cigars and tobacco production. Never have I heard that "flavoring" the tobacco was part of the process. Is this common? Do farms do this to most tobacco? Is it done throughout the Central America tobacco regions? Is it done only on poor quality leaf or do the big name companies buy this "flavored" leaf?

Lots of questions. I thought I new a fair bit about cigar tobacco production but now I feel like an idiot. Any enlightenment would be appreciated.

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The 'Mojo' is usually not done for the purpose of flavoring. However, some companies, like Drew Estate, do make flavored cigars as well. They will NOT disclose any of their recipe secrets. In the video you point to they are applying the mojo and then packing the tobacco away to age. After a period of time the tobacco will emerge and have no indication of any flavorings what so ever. The citric acid will change the PH of the tobacco and help smooth it out and other things will add some unique flavors to the tobacco and even salt petre is added to increase the burn rate.

The family secret recipes are just that, secrets but they all do some sort of processing and have for hundreds of years.

Tobacco processing (mojo) is the secret to producing a great cigar and then fine tune it through blending. Rolling the cigar is the easy part.

Take a look through all the experiments of additives for tobacco...
http://www.leffingwell.com/download/TobaccoFlavorBook.pdf

Bruce T. said:

Wow! I just watched this video from the Mojo thread ( ). This is news to me. I have read dozens of books and watched hundreds of videos on cigars and tobacco production. Never have I heard that "flavoring" the tobacco was part of the process. Is this common? Do farms do this to most tobacco? Is it done throughout the Central America tobacco regions? Is it done only on poor quality leaf or do the big name companies buy this "flavored" leaf?

Lots of questions. I thought I new a fair bit about cigar tobacco production but now I feel like an idiot. Any enlightenment would be appreciated.

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This is touchy because, to say the least, they are trade secrets. With the FDA looming, there are additional things that threaten the market.
There is important word distinction at play. "flavoring" is not used in the premium cigar. It refers to a lower quality product.
Until "infusion" came about there were no reference for the public in the premium cigar but, profile notes and, alike.
Leaf is bought without this "processing" done to it. This "processing" is done by the manufacturer/factory or, very close to it.
Tobacco it very susceptible to enhancement. This is why they will be kept separated. Not all the components will get processed the same or, at all.

Gdaddy said:

Take a look through all the experiments of additives for tobacco...
http://www.leffingwell.com/download/TobaccoFlavorBook.pdf

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I did read through this. It is very detailed and interesting but in the introduction refers to cigar tobacco as being fermented but does not specifically refer to any additives. It seems to imply that additives (mojo) are used in cigarette, pipe and other types of tobacco products but not specifically cigars. This was my belief. Cigars were "special" because they were totally natural. At least that is what I believed.
I realize that my use of the term "flavoring" is inaccurate. The mojo seems to be to modify the fermenting or aging process. I still curious if this is wide spread in the cigar industry.

Bruce T. said:

..... I still curious if this is wide spread in the cigar industry.

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You may have to take your own best educated guess. Do you believe that info like this would be willingly shared by big tobacco? I do not. It does sound as if you may be disappointed if it is the case. Do you think that big tobacco would think that the public may be disappointed to know this. I think maybe. I have bin told by a factory that they do. I have chosen to believe that they all do. Not a problem in my mind.

Mojo is an interesting process. Aging before rolling is also an interesting process. However, I evaluate leaf condition at the time I purchase it. The issue I am having as a moderately proficient roller and a novice blender is that most of my sticks have 5 different types of leaf in them. I suspect if one of those leaves is harsh, it will overshadow anything else good that's going on. Guess I gotta roll up some single leaf cheroots and start getting intimate with leaf individually.

Anyone want to share a list of leaf that is harsh OR a list that is smooth?

It's most likely my individual taster-buds, but here is a list of leaf I just can't do because I find it harsh, bad aftertaste or hits the back of my throat.
Olor (all of it)
Honduran viso
Nicuraguran viso
Some Nicurgan seco
Honduran seco
LO PA wrapper, binder
I can't recall the other leafs, but there is more.

Smooth for me:
Honduran ligero (I was surprised)
Nicaraguan ligero Jalapa

Marc L said:

This is touchy because, to say the least, they are trade secrets. With the FDA looming, there are additional things that threaten the market.
There is important word distinction at play. "flavoring" is not used in the premium cigar. It refers to a lower quality product.
Until "infusion" came about there were no reference for the public in the premium cigar but, profile notes and, alike.
Leaf is bought without this "processing" done to it. This "processing" is done by the manufacturer/factory or, very close to it.
Tobacco it very susceptible to enhancement. This is why they will be kept separated. Not all the components will get processed the same or, at all.

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If it's Cuban you're talking about, the FDA doesn't apply.
If tobacco is being treated post fermentation it would have to be quite specific and the recipe would have to be extremely consistent.
I can't imagine they are hacking together some magic mojo like a few home rollers do. Not that it's a bad thing for home-rollers mind you.

The WLT... Ciabo Valley Vuelta Abajo Habano ligero and seco. Standard Dominican binder is pretty neutral. The Mata Fina wrapper is nice also. IMO.

I haven't put mojo on my leaf save some chardonnay on Honduran viso. It didn't really work.
I would also caution everyone from spraying leaf with "stuff" because whatever you put on it is a different chemical
compound when it burns than when it is dry.
I don't want to be the test dummy trying out some hacked up spray to put on tobacco leaf.

Dominican56 said:

I haven't put mojo on my leaf save some chardonnay on Honduran viso. It didn't really work.
I would also caution everyone from spraying leaf with "stuff" because whatever you put on it is a different chemical
compound when it burns than when it is dry.
I don't want to be the test dummy trying out some hacked up spray to put on tobacco leaf.

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Just curious, what was the recipe of 'mojo' you're using?