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Mr.Erskine

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This will probably show my naivety, but I had a thought, a question, actually, after reading a post that someone made about a cigar tasting "not as good" as it did years ago. In other words, if one smoked an Oliva V torpedo in 2006, and the 2011 issue was not as good.

Like wine, couldn't that be the case based on the tobacco crop of a particular year. Even though it's the same leaf from the same part of the plant, processed and rolled the same, and branded and banded the same, isn't it possible that there are variations in the outcome of the given cigars because of the weather, crop, or other variables? Or is the cigar industry a completely controlled system?

I'm not trying to be funny or stupid, even if the answer does seem obvious.
 
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You're correct, which is why highly rated ORs are always sought after. A great example of this is the Perdomo Lot 23. I think this is why Pete and Litto, for example, went with the concept of single farm, single year special releases.
 

Hoshneer

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I am sure the taste varies by year. You can't control the environment. One other thing to consider is that your personal taste varies also.
 

Tobacco Giant

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Honestly, I think it goes even deeper than that. There are even variations (although less) from the same cigars manufactured in the same year. I think we've all had the experience of lighting up one of our favorite smokes and having it be a dud. Such is life with a natural product.
 

Mr.Erskine

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You're correct, which is why highly rated ORs are always sought after. A great example of this is the Perdomo Lot 23. I think this is why Pete and Litto, for example, went with the concept of single farm, single year special releases.
So, then, and, again, I'm not trying to be smart, wouldn't using single year release for one's cigars make it hard to develop brand integrity?
 

BrandonP

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The biggest thing you see is that tobacco is a HUGE drain on soil. It is a mineral sucker for lack of a better term. A lot of growers will only grow on a plot of land for 2-3 seasons then rotate some other crop onto the land to help revitalize it. Corn is a good example of a crop that adds more to the soil then it takes. Tobacco just eats up all the good stuff in the soil.
 

javajunkie

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So, then, and, again, I'm not trying to be smart, wouldn't using single year release for one's cigars make it hard to develop brand integrity?
... which is why verite's and SB#whatsits are marketed as such, as one and done. this is above my level, but my understanding is that one of the hardest challenges for producers is both growing and blending for consistency over years. wine as well, i would imagine: the high end highlights the variation of the seasons, but the every day stuff damn well better be the same every time.

and a hats off to all the producers who keep us in consistent smokes.
 
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Craig Mac

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There are a lot of variables, weather(temp, sunlight, rainfall, humidity, ect..) and soil nutrients play a big roll in consistency. They try to prepare the fields as much as they can to keep that consistency, but results will vary. Also, I am sure the master blenders know a few tricks of how to tweak blends a little given the tobacco on hand to get it as close to what it is intended to be.
 
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Yeah, it's that tweaking that I'm trying to learn about.
I think your wine comparison is dead on. You can do certain things to insure that the crop will come out the same but some years there will be a difference that's where experience and artisanship come in to play. The best use there years of experince to tweek this or that to get that consistent smoke. I imagine those "tweaks" are closley guarded secrets.
 

thegoldenmackid

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I started this for the (now defunct?) The Cigar Network. (Marvin, seriously, do it...)

This was from back in June or so...

Had the exact same question.


The Grape, the Leaf, and the Difference

The connections between the cigar and wine industries? Literally countless. From the fundamental aspect that challenges one palate to the consumers who enjoy both, every aspect of each industry seems to be more and more intertwined with the other. Even the media personalities that dominate the industries are connected. Marvin Shanken operates both the largest cigar publication and one of the largest wine publications. His most prominent write, James Suckling, who left M. Shanken last year, is regarded as not only one of the respected wine critics, but is also a notable cigar personality, particularly in regards to Havana. This passion for wine and cigars doesn't escape those that are responsible for creating some of the world's finest luxuries. Examples? Tatuaje's Pete Johnson, an avid wine collector, named his parent company Havana Cellars. Havana Cellars distributes the Schrader Hispaniola, a Dominican cigar made out of the Para Ti factory for Fred Schrader, of Schrader Cellar Wines. Over the past decade, these connections have become more obvious as individuals in the cigar industry have began to boldly advertise their use of wine techniques in cigar products. Last summer saw the release of two single farm vintages: Tatuaje's La Vérité and Toraño's Single Region and later this year, Andre Farkas will release the Viaje Late Harvest, which claims to implement some of the same late harvesting techniques as the wine industry.

The fundamental question coming from someone who is not an avid wine consumer centers around the concept of "vintages" in wine. Vintage refers to the date of the crop used in the specific bottle of wine. David Diaz, author of Stogie Fresh, explains unlike cigar manufacturers, wine producers generally use crops from the same year because, "the wine industry is ruled by regulations on what can and can't go on a bottle. Wines will only display a vintage when all the fruit is from the same harvest year. So, if they want to display a vintage at all, all the fruit MUST be from the same vintage year. No choice in the matter." While the cigar industry features dates, it is nowhere towards the prevalence or science of wine. Habanos S.A., Tatuaje, Perdomo and a few others have placed dates on bands, but because of regulation these dates have held a wide variety of meanings, not just about when the tobacco was harvested. In addition, Bruce Lewis, VP of sales for Toraño Family Cigars, indicated that for Habanos, placing dates on boxes, for when they were rolled, has had mixed results. Certain years that are noted for problems become less desirable, while years that were better have higher demand. (Habanos S.A. is not alone in this practice, La Aurora, Padrón, A.J. Fernandez and others all box-date, yet the practice is far from prevalent.) Even more problematic, the dates only refer to packaging, not to actual tobaccos.

While single farm vintages have been around in the cigar industry for the better part of the last decade (starting with La Flor Dominicana's Litto Gomez Diez release in 2006), the practice hasn't really caught on. There's a variety of explanations, most fundamentally that using tobaccos from a variety of countries allowed for a much greater diversity in blends. Yet, Bruce Lewis indicates that the issue is likely deeper than production, rather at the consumer. He explains that in the wine industry, consumers expect that wines, even from the same vineyard, will vary year to year, the opposite of what he believes cigar consumers expect. The idea is that if you purchase a Fuente Hemingway Short Story, it should taste like the last Short Story you purchased, even if it was a decade ago. To conform to this belief, manufacturers are forced to be constantly tweaking blends, in many cases, multiple times a year. Henke Kelner, head of TABADOM Holdings, the company responsible for producing Davidoff, AVO, Zino, Paul Garmirian, Cusano and a few other brands, notes that for Davidoff White Label, they employ a "three year rule." Rather than using tobaccos just from one year, they will use a diversity of tobaccos from three consecutive years, so that as the tobacco changes, the cigars will only have subtle, presumably unnoticeable, differences as far as consumers are concerned.

No party interviewed was willing to give a conclusive answer as to which school of thought is better. They all noted that often times wine and cigar connoisseurs are the same person. For now, in the midst of a rush of wine practices being implemented in the cigar industry, including Pete Johnson's use of "futures" on his most recent La Vérité release, the differences surrounding vintage serve as one of the largest differences in philosophy between the heavily-connected worlds. While one can assume that single farm vintages and other wine practices will continue to be introduced and expanded in the premium tobacco industry, it seems unlikely that any change will occur on the concept of vintages. There is however a growing movement at the consumer and retail level for box dating to be introduced, particularly as the long-term aging of non-Cuban cigars begins to take prevalence. Yet, despite the use of box dating by companies large and small, it remains unclear if the cigar industry will be willing to make this change as a whole.
 

thegoldenmackid

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Herklots perhaps best describes it.
I'm kind of going in a bunch of different directions, but here's one more little description.

Say I have a cigar, and to make it easy: It's one size and one blend. The blend (upon its launch) is
Wrapper: 2001 Ecuador/CT Visos
Binder: 2006 Dominican Olor Seco
Filler: 2006 Dominican Piloto Ligero 2 leaves
2008 Dominican Piloto Seco 1 leaf
2008 Nicaraguan Criollo '98 Ligero 1 leaf

And I make 100,000 cigars on the first production. Now, we have 20,000 cigars left in inventory, they're selling great... I have to make another 100,000 cigars but I don't have any more 2006 Dominican Piloto Ligero. What do I do?

Well it depends... perhaps I use a younger Dominican Grown Piloto... maybe 2008, but opt for a lower priming. OR, maybe I try some Criollo '98 from 2006 that was grown on the same farm. Or, if I have 2006 Piloto but lower primings... maybe I use 2.5 leaves of Seco, and only half a leaf of the 2008 Seco.

A manufacturer would make 5 or 6 different combinations and taste them compared to the original to find the closest match. That's why having inventory of tobacco is important.
 
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i mean, this is why factories have a master blender on hand at all times. yes they blend the special blends but they also constantly reblend the standard production cigars to try and maintain consistency.
 
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I see this a lot in the craft beer sector too. For example - the malt profile changes, or the hops aren't as aromatic, or lack a distinctive quality they had last year. And it is all down to weather conditions. Beers change from season to season, because the barley got more rain this season, or the hops copped less sunlight or whatever. It's inevitable, and as hard as the brewers, or in this case cigar companies try to keep consistency, there will be variation.
Hope this helps... It's my first post after all :)
Mitch.
 

Mr.Erskine

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I started this for the (now defunct?) The Cigar Network. (Marvin, seriously, do it...)

This was from back in June or so...

Had the exact same question.


The Grape, the Leaf, and the Difference

The connections between the cigar and wine industries? Literally countless. From the fundamental aspect that challenges one palate to the consumers who enjoy both, every aspect of each industry seems to be more and more intertwined with the other. Even the media personalities that dominate the industries are connected. Marvin Shanken operates both the largest cigar publication and one of the largest wine publications. His most prominent write, James Suckling, who left M. Shanken last year, is regarded as not only one of the respected wine critics, but is also a notable cigar personality, particularly in regards to Havana. This passion for wine and cigars doesn't escape those that are responsible for creating some of the world's finest luxuries. Examples? Tatuaje's Pete Johnson, an avid wine collector, named his parent company Havana Cellars. Havana Cellars distributes the Schrader Hispaniola, a Dominican cigar made out of the Para Ti factory for Fred Schrader, of Schrader Cellar Wines. Over the past decade, these connections have become more obvious as individuals in the cigar industry have began to boldly advertise their use of wine techniques in cigar products. Last summer saw the release of two single farm vintages: Tatuaje's La Vérité and Toraño's Single Region and later this year, Andre Farkas will release the Viaje Late Harvest, which claims to implement some of the same late harvesting techniques as the wine industry.

The fundamental question coming from someone who is not an avid wine consumer centers around the concept of "vintages" in wine. Vintage refers to the date of the crop used in the specific bottle of wine. David Diaz, author of Stogie Fresh, explains unlike cigar manufacturers, wine producers generally use crops from the same year because, "the wine industry is ruled by regulations on what can and can't go on a bottle. Wines will only display a vintage when all the fruit is from the same harvest year. So, if they want to display a vintage at all, all the fruit MUST be from the same vintage year. No choice in the matter." While the cigar industry features dates, it is nowhere towards the prevalence or science of wine. Habanos S.A., Tatuaje, Perdomo and a few others have placed dates on bands, but because of regulation these dates have held a wide variety of meanings, not just about when the tobacco was harvested. In addition, Bruce Lewis, VP of sales for Toraño Family Cigars, indicated that for Habanos, placing dates on boxes, for when they were rolled, has had mixed results. Certain years that are noted for problems become less desirable, while years that were better have higher demand. (Habanos S.A. is not alone in this practice, La Aurora, Padrón, A.J. Fernandez and others all box-date, yet the practice is far from prevalent.) Even more problematic, the dates only refer to packaging, not to actual tobaccos.

While single farm vintages have been around in the cigar industry for the better part of the last decade (starting with La Flor Dominicana's Litto Gomez Diez release in 2006), the practice hasn't really caught on. There's a variety of explanations, most fundamentally that using tobaccos from a variety of countries allowed for a much greater diversity in blends. Yet, Bruce Lewis indicates that the issue is likely deeper than production, rather at the consumer. He explains that in the wine industry, consumers expect that wines, even from the same vineyard, will vary year to year, the opposite of what he believes cigar consumers expect. The idea is that if you purchase a Fuente Hemingway Short Story, it should taste like the last Short Story you purchased, even if it was a decade ago. To conform to this belief, manufacturers are forced to be constantly tweaking blends, in many cases, multiple times a year. Henke Kelner, head of TABADOM Holdings, the company responsible for producing Davidoff, AVO, Zino, Paul Garmirian, Cusano and a few other brands, notes that for Davidoff White Label, they employ a "three year rule." Rather than using tobaccos just from one year, they will use a diversity of tobaccos from three consecutive years, so that as the tobacco changes, the cigars will only have subtle, presumably unnoticeable, differences as far as consumers are concerned.

No party interviewed was willing to give a conclusive answer as to which school of thought is better. They all noted that often times wine and cigar connoisseurs are the same person. For now, in the midst of a rush of wine practices being implemented in the cigar industry, including Pete Johnson's use of "futures" on his most recent La Vérité release, the differences surrounding vintage serve as one of the largest differences in philosophy between the heavily-connected worlds. While one can assume that single farm vintages and other wine practices will continue to be introduced and expanded in the premium tobacco industry, it seems unlikely that any change will occur on the concept of vintages. There is however a growing movement at the consumer and retail level for box dating to be introduced, particularly as the long-term aging of non-Cuban cigars begins to take prevalence. Yet, despite the use of box dating by companies large and small, it remains unclear if the cigar industry will be willing to make this change as a whole.
Thank you for all of that. There are some interesting notes, but it does make some of my wonderings a little more clear.
 

Mr.Erskine

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I hope that my taste continues to refine, (in wine as well,) that I can continue to pick out more nuances than I already do. This gives me a new way to compare the cigars that I am smoking, but when I write reviews, I won't get that detailed and snobbish.... I guess that's also a good reason to keep some kind of journal of one's smoking experiences.
 
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