Aging...

[Kingston]

Try VCC. They are called domestic there too. That forum is based overseas. It is like that everywhere as far as I know. Domestically available or not, all non-cuban cigars are lumped together.

Yup, it is based overseas. But that doesn't change the fact that most of the users of that forum are based in the US and my point still applies.

 

[MichiganM]

Another anecdote I wanted to add. I thought again about Fox's comments. Perhaps it's the initial few years, that "first vacuum" as MRN calls it that is extremely important in setting off the whole aging and marrying of tobacco process. Perhaps when you knock that out by aging them seperately and mixing and matching ages you get a mismatched product that is forever a rag doll of a cigar that will not benefit from any further time other than stabilizing the cigar back into a normal environment post-ship. I think this is a topic I will have to research more, as it is most intriguing.

Once again I'd like to tell of you that I love cuban cigars. I don't hate them, don't hate their prices, don't hate the time it takes to age them. I just sometimes misconceptualize the whole take on them being ultimate in the cigar realm. Certainly some great vitola's that have a unique twang to them, and most of them are simply delicious. I love them as much as the next guy. I will probably not, however, be a cuban-only cigar smoker any time in my life. Maybe I will and I cannot forsee it. But I see a true aficionado of cigars as someone who samples cigars from all over the world. Just MY OPINION, and worth less than the type time it took to wrote it.

Fascinating subject, aging cuban vs. cigars of other descent. Any other opinions extremely welcome!!!

 

[MichiganM]

Yup, it is based overseas. But that doesn't change the fact that most of the users of that forum are based in the US and my point still applies.

Hmm, I wonder if Hawkan decided that he would cater to U.S. smokers when he made that forum? That doesn't sound like him from what I've read. They openly post sources because they are based overseas and that is legal. Just my take on it.

 

[Kingston]

Hmm, I wonder if Hawkan decided that he would cater to U.S. smokers when he made that forum? That doesn't sound like him from what I've read.

He's not trying to cater to any one specific group (except cigar smokers).
You are asking why people refer to non cuban cigars as "domestics".
I replied that the majority of the users on the major cigar boards (where you probably saw the term domestic), are based in the US.
Can you dispute that? Are you telling me that most of the users on Cwise, Cweekly, here, VCC, CS, etc are based out of the US?
Users and their posts are what make up a board and it's accepted nomenclature.
This has nothing to do with who is trying to attract who, but just who happens to use a particular board.
This is a pretty silly argument to be having, but I was just trying to describe why I THINK (this is after all, just an opinion) NCs are referred to as domestics.
:fencing:
:grin:

 

[MichiganM]

He's not trying to cater to any one specific group (except cigar smokers).
You are asking why people refer to non cuban cigars as "domestics".
I replied that the majority of the users on the major cigar boards (where you probably saw the term domestic), are based in the US.
Can you dispute that? Are you telling me that most of the users on Cwise, Cweekly, here, VCC, CS, etc are based out of the US?
Users and their posts are what make up a board and it's accepted nomenclature.
This has nothing to do with who is trying to attract who, but just who happens to use a particular board.
This is a pretty silly argument to be having, but I was just trying to describe why I THINK (this is after all, just an opinion) NCs are referred to as domestics.
:fencing:
:grin:

That's fine. But domestic, the word, typically means something that is produced or made from within the body you are speaking of. When you have a forum that is based out of Australia, and you call non-cuban cigars "domestic" that does not make sense. Just as it would not make sense to call cuban's domestic..unless you are based out of Cuba. I see where the term comes from, but it just doesn't make sense in the traditional use of the word. If you say domestic as in "available vs. not available" that still doesn't make sense in Australia's case. That's just me. Really I wasn't arguing the term, or use of the term. I was expanding from my original take on aging cubans vs. aging non-cuban cigars for example and applying it to a different area of the hobby. The fact that cubans are treated and handled differently is a fact. I was just trying to relate those different areas into aging...for effect really. I'm simply questioning the reason behind handling the cigars from different descent differently and applying it into a multi-faceted argument....different from my original take on aging. I'm not arguing that most users are from the U.S. on cigar boards...I am arguing that it doesn't make sense to have a forum based out of Australia and call domestic cigars non-cubans because they are the only kind legally available in a country half way around the world. If you use terms that are kind on U.S. smokers because that's the kind of board you wanna have, then why allow sources posted all over. Not my board, and really not my argument. I care more about the aging questions I initially brought up, if you'd like to contribute on that please do so. I'd love to hear more.

 

[Kingston]

You're the one that brought up the whole domestic thing.
Where a board is based is absolutely irrelevant. I doubt any of the non-US members use the term domestic in referring to non-cubans. If they did it was probably in a discussion with an American.
The simple fact is that Americans use the term domestics. Americans are the majority on these boards (there are SEVERAL other boards where this is not the case). Therefore, why would you be surprised to hear them referred to as domestics. Again, this is nothing to do with who created the board, where it's based, what they allow, just who happens to be posting there.
EDIT: I agree that domestic by itself can be misleading. But like I said, it's short for domestically available. Just a shorter way of saying it.

To bring this back to aging:
Many cigars get better with aging, many don't.
Most Cuban cigars have proven long term track record of aging. Some will still taste like crap, but most get better. This is observable with your own collection. If you go to a vintage cigar shop in another country (a good place to go if you want to buy some aged cigars of any type) you won't find nearly as many non-cuban brands as cuban ones. I would think that retail shops are always looking to make a buck, why don't they stock some 96 vintage CAOs?

 

[MichiganM]

You're the one that brought up the whole domestic thing.
Where a board is based is absolutely irrelevant. I doubt any of the non-US members use the term domestic in referring to non-cubans. If they did it was probably in a discussion with an American.
The simple fact is that Americans use the term domestics. Americans are the majority on these boards (there are SEVERAL other boards where this is not the case). Therefore, why would you be surprised to hear them referred to as domestics. Again, this is nothing to do with who created the board, where it's based, what they allow, just who happens to be posting there.
EDIT: I agree that domestic by itself can be misleading. But like I said, it's short for domestically available. Just a shorter way of saying it.

To bring this back to aging:
Many cigars get better with aging, many don't.
Most Cuban cigars have proven long term track record of aging. Some will still taste like crap, but most get better. This is observable with your own collection. If you go to a vintage cigar shop in another country (a good place to go if you want to buy some aged cigars of any type) you won't find nearly as many non-cuban brands as cuban ones. I would think that retail shops are always looking to make a buck, why don't they stock some 96 vintage CAOs?

Obviously you don't see my point so I'll let this go. Anyone have some thoughts on the initial points of aging?

As far as your question of why not stock vintage 96 CAO's....ummmm...that's kinda the reason for me posting this thread lol. Of course, why not stock many non-vintage non-cuban cigars. Non-cuban cigars are just starting to make the rounds world-wide and are typically just as expensive if not more expensive than cuban versions due to local import taxes and many other reasons.

And, yes, Cubans do have a long track record of positive experiences with aging. That could be because they've been around for much, much, much longer than non-cuban versions. Another reason could be because there is very little hype (my initial observation on no MRN-like work on non-cuban aging) surrounding the idea of aging non-cuban cigars. The experience in this arena is very limited by all from my viewpoint, includying my own experience.

 

[CWS]

I hate to get in the middle of this but will put forth a hypothesis. Aging cigars mellows them, melds the flavors and removes the harsness. NC have only in the last few years gone to strength. To age a medium or light cigar takes it down to nothing or very little while aging a strong cigar may (and I say may) provide you with one that has more depth and character. If you read CA, they are starting to show NC's in their section on aged cigars. Just last issue they showed an Opus and at least one other NC that are ten years old. I put forth that it takes strength and body to allow a cigar to age well and it has only been in the last ten years that NC's were producing such cigars. 2 cents.

As far as CAO's. My BM has a ten year old box of the original maduros manufactured before the current rollers that he sells for $25 bucks a pop. They are magnificent.

 

[MichiganM]

I hate to get in the middle of this but will put forth a hypothesis. Aging cigars mellows them, melds the flavors and removes the harsness. NC have only in the last few years gone to strength. To age a medium or light cigar takes it down to nothing or very little while aging a strong cigar may (and I say may) provide you with one that has more depth and character. If you read CA, they are starting to show NC's in their section on aged cigars. Just last issue they showed an Opus and at least one other NC that are ten years old. I put forth that it takes strength and body to allow a cigar to age well and it has only been in the last ten years that NC's were producing such cigars. 2 cents.

As far as CAO's. My BM has a ten year old box of the original maduros manufactured before the current rollers that he sells for $25 bucks a pop. They are magnificent.

I seen that CA article on the aged Opus and a couple others I believe. I don't take much stock in CA, but the fact that they're reviewing 10 year old n/c's along with aged cubans says something trend-wise. I'm fascinated to hear that your B&M has 10 year old CAO's and they taste great. That truly gives me hope and I'm glad you posted that. It just gets back to my one comment about mystical fairy land stuff. Tobacco is tobacco...it may taste different from one country to the next and may have different qualities (tannin metallic)...but in the end what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you can age cuban tobacco, then by god you can age any tobacco and get at least similar results. Thanks for the information, that's fantastic.

 

[Jwrussell]

MM, do you visit CigarWeekly much? I think if you visit there NC room you will find that alot of folks there age their NC's/Domestics/whatever (evil smile). ANd now and then you'll see someone drooling over a find at a local BM where there is a box of cigars coated in plume (a sign of aging to some extent). I can't count how many times I've heard guys refering to NC's on CW stating they were laying a certain box down for a long time. People are out there doing it...

A few more thoughts:
Don't ever become a Cuban only guy, I applaud you for not being one. Being one limits your choices and makes the hobby more expensive! :wink:

NC brands do not date code their boxes. Makes it one HECK of a lot more difficult to sell on age and even collect and age. If for instance I were to offer up what I said was a 5 year old box of CAO's, how would you know I was telling the truth? A 5 year old box of PSD4s? Just check the box code.
What I'm getting at is that part of the whole aging deal is that the NC manufacturers simply aren't marketing on it. Otherwise they'd Date Stamp their boxes.

Great topic. One of the best I've seen in a while and a lot of interesting thoughts. Hell, I've learend something, and that's always a good thing. :headroll:

And on the domestic thing, not to extend that, but I think you guys are really arguing sematics.

 

[MichiganM]

Hmm, good points Jason. I never visit CW as the boards I lurk at are limited to say the least. I didn't know there was a group out there that are devoted to laying down n/c's. That is encouraging to say the least.

I agree that non-cuban manufacturers do not make it any easier on us collectors/hobbyists/smokers by not date-coding their boxes. I think this will change in the future, as some already do it and some are slowly changing by starting. The best we, as collectors and smokers, can do for now is stamp it when we receive it.

I'm glad you learned something from this thread, I know I have. I think it's important to share ideas and I really feel that cigar smoking and collecting is something much more expansive than it was 20 years ago. Expanding on that, if that information is true (limited to my experience and publications' dictation) than some of our collective information and experience is going to be limited compared to a hobby like wine collecting/drinking which has been popular for a long, long time by a large group of enthusiasts. This is one thing that can make certain aspects of this hobby frustrating at times. It's groups of brothers like this forum that make these frustrations easier. I truly appreciate everyone who contributed to this thread. I think we all have alot to learn about collecting/smoking cigars. I feel I will still be a student to the day I die. But I look foward to my future experiences and hopefully get to share them with all you fine brothers!

As a final note, in retrospect, I think the end result is that non-cuban cigars DO benefit from aging...if that retrospect is only limited to what you fine brothers have shared with me. My experience is with 1 year or less aged non-cubans and they did taste better about 8 months down the pipeline. It seems to be that there at least some agreeable notes that non-cuban cigars benefit from aging, but not to the extent of cubans simply because they are already 2-5 years ahead and therefore sometimes finished with their aging journey. This anectode is seen by hobbyists who have aged 64's for an extended period of time. They have noted that there is no significant change. Perhaps this is because it is already aged to it's maximum flavor profile. My Padron X000 I have talked about is not aged to the extent of the 64 and therefore DID improve after time. Perhaps after 2-3 years it would have maxmized it's flavor profile. Perhaps, in the end, this is the main difference. You can lay a CAO down for a year and notice a great flavor change as some here on the board have noted. After 3+ years perhaps not so much because of the pre-aging it may have only needed another year to fulfill it's destiny. Of course the opinion may vary, just look at CWS's post. This is a deep topic that will only truly reveal itself after more time in the hobby by all of us. I look forward to more aged non-cubans as well as aged cubans (yummmmy)..and I also look forward to more non-cuban cigar factories stamping their boxes. I truly feel the best is yet to come brothers!

Thanks for all of your input. I truly feel we can all learn from each other. I'm a student of the fine leaf, and always will be.

 

[Wasch_24]

Jason,
You need to look around the 'net more. Many many people are talking about domestic cigars they have had in their humidors for years...just not here. Somehow this board ended up very Cuban Cigar focused over time.

 

[CWS]

Jason,
You need to look around the 'net more. Many many people are talking about domestic cigars they have had in their humidors for years...just not here. Somehow this board ended up very Cuban Cigar focused over time.

I agree. I love my cubans but its the variety of cigars from all over that keeps it interesting. I bought some Gurkha doble maduros over a year ago, tried them and cast them to the bottom of one of my boxes as giveaways. I found them the other day and the change was amazing. Maybe its me, maybe its the cigar but I am definitely enjoying the hell out of them now.

 

[djs134]

I hate to get in the middle of this but will put forth a hypothesis. Aging cigars mellows them, melds the flavors and removes the harsness. NC have only in the last few years gone to strength. To age a medium or light cigar takes it down to nothing or very little while aging a strong cigar may (and I say may) provide you with one that has more depth and character. If you read CA, they are starting to show NC's in their section on aged cigars. Just last issue they showed an Opus and at least one other NC that are ten years old. I put forth that it takes strength and body to allow a cigar to age well and it has only been in the last ten years that NC's were producing such cigars. 2 cents.

As far as CAO's. My BM has a ten year old box of the original maduros manufactured before the current rollers that he sells for $25 bucks a pop. They are magnificent.

Good point. I've been thinking about this more recently myself (since I purchased my 150 qt cooler). And I think there’s something to what you are suggesting CW. Now that there are more powerful cigars on the NC market (Maximus, Opus, VSG, Double Ligero, LGC Serie R, etc) there should be some more reports of successful aging.

Another thought is that Cuba has been synonymous with quality cigars. Reading MRN gives me the impression that aging cigars has been going on a long time by connoisseurs which means mostly Cubans. Honduras and Nicaragua have been emerging cigar suppliers for the better part of 10 years now as I understand it. That would mean that sticks from these countries may not have been viewed as being of a quality sufficient for aging.

 

[cvm4]

Another thought is that Cuba has been synonymous with quality cigars.

IMO, Cuba is the exact opposite of quality cigars. They have only, just recently in the past couple years, started to have better quality cigars from all the factories.

I didn't read this thread because I'm just a cuban cigar snob :razz: But I would like to add that the natural progression of cigars is from regular n/c to premium n/c then uber n/c and then to cuban cigars. I know some can still enjoy n/c cigars after they've converted to cuban cigars but most can't go back because they love the TWANG it's a kick in a cigar There's gotta be a reason that most cigar smokers don't age n/c cigars once they've converted to cuban cigars. They might put the cubans away to age and switch it up from cuban cigar to n/c cigar. It could the the "forbidden fruit" mentality, but who really knows :dunno:

 

[DJ Shylock]

I have read the post and they cover the philosophy of ageing very well but can someone point me to techniques of ageing properly. Thanks.

 

[Jwrussell]

Techniques? No real "techniques" to it. Just ensure good steady temp and humidity and leave 'em alone. The hardest thing about aging is not disturbing them.

 

[cvm4]

Exactly... Not too high for either temp or humidity. My humidor fluctuates but I try to keep my temp around 65 degrees and my humidity 60-63%.

 

[Alwayslit]

Find cigars that have legs. Mild cigars normally won't age well.

 

[thrasher66]

Great thread!! Wow learned a ton. I was also impressed with the respect shown to each other by the Brothers. Hat tip to all involved.