FDA Regulations (Hypocrisy & BS)

[JonHuber]

BOTL - I hope you all take a few minutes to read this post. This morning, I happened upon an article touting the new "Hello Kitty" branded wine:


The main reason as to WHY the FDA wants to regulate premium cigars is allegedly to 'protect our youth.' They claim that we (premium cigar industry) market towards the youth of America. Take a look at that photo of the "Hello Kitty" (a KID'S cartoon!) wine and then take a look at ANY premium cigar, cigar box, or advertisement, and you tell me WHICH appears to market to our youth!?

And yet, the FDA doesn't even regulate alcohol (the TTB does). Why? Supposedly because it is seen as an "agricultural commodity." If that is the case, the same argument can be made for premium cigars. In fact, I'd venture to guess there are more artificial additives (sulfites, preservatives, etc.) found in wine and/or alcohol than premium cigars. Premium cigars contain black tobacco and glue/gum (to affix the cap)--that is all.

My guess is the real reason the FDA stays away from alcohol but wants to regulate premium cigars is one of economics. The approximate annual revenue for premium cigars in the U.S. is $1.9B. The approximate annual revenue for alcohol in the U.S. is $189B. In other words, $187.1B buys you a helluva lot more lobbying power in D.C., which--let's face it--buys you a helluva lot more politicians.

This whole thing of our government being "For the people--By the people" has eroded into "For the government--BUY the government."

Would love to hear your comments, opinions, views on this topic on this thread. Thanks for listening.


Jon Huber
Crowned Heads

 

[D Quintero]

Hello Kitty is a Japanese powerhouse brand Bro .
HK even makes vibrators
Figures , it all makes sense now

 

[bostoneo]

Hello Kitty is a Japanese powerhouse brand Bro .
HK even makes vibrators
Figures , it all makes sense now

Hello Kitty wine...vibrators.. either way you'll be buzzing

 

[Xingpao]

I could rant about the FDA all day, but I find the ability of food manufacturers to add any chemical they wish to our food (including every child) and simply declare it is safe and be able to use it, is ASININE.
There is absolutely no rational thought in doing anything but padding politician's pocketbooks and self-serving ATMs they call charities.
Evil shit indeed. Fucking evil shit.

 

[A Huge Nerd]

Jon, Thanks for continuing the fight against the FDA and the big government machine. I want to be optimistic about the future, but I can't recall a time when the government took control of something, then realized they had made a mistake, and gave the control and choice back to the people.

I believe in complete freedom of choice. As long as my choices don't infringe on someone's rights, I should be free to do as I so choose. The government thinks they know better and they think they have to "save us from ourselves". That is deeply rooted in a slowly growing contempt for liberty among many political groups, but the rate of growth is increasing. The government continues to issue new regulations on our lives every day. Some issue those regulations because they honestly believe they are trying to help and make it better. They are ignorant or uninformed as to the adverse consequences of over-regulation. Others do it because they want to have control over us. They want to shape the way we think and the actions we take. It's the old Evil or Stupid argument. Does a politician restrict freedom because they are evil, or stupid? The needle has been moving on that for decades. Unfortunately, the needle is moving toward the Evil side more and more everyday. They sell us with the lie that they just want to help, but they just want more control.

I think a company should be able to put whatever logo, or artwork, or marketing into a product as they so choose. As long as the work does not infringe on existing patents or trademarks. If a cigar company wants to make a box that looks like a toy, they should be allowed to do so. If a winery wants to have a label with a picture of Spongebob Squarepants, they should be allowed to do so. There are already laws on the books making it illegal to sell those products to anyone underage. A shop could even refuse to carry the product, but it should be their choice as a business owner. If a cigar shop or bottle shop sells product to someone underage, there are already laws on the books for that. If a parent allows their child to use tobacco or alcohol products, there are already laws on the books for that.

New regulations always go a step higher in the chain of business. This new step from the FDA is going directly to manufacturers and importers. I'm no expert on the cigar business, but as far as I'm aware, that's the highest link in the chain. Once they have control of that, the end is not far off.

Thanks again, @JonHuber - Keep up the good work. We are behind you, and all the other good people in the cigar business.

 

[HIM*]

The problem is they aren't making a good distinction between something people empty out and fill with weed and a premium handrolled. It can't be looked at as broadly as fruit when it needs to be seen as apples and oranges. I'll admit the infused market doesn't help but people should be free to smoke what they want. I'll also admit theres some cigars marketed in ways I don't particularly agree with but its not representative of the industry as whole.
As for the TTB. I think it was a split off of the ATF to deal with taxes. The TTB and FDA work together but one is more about taxes while the other is about safety and health. With the TTB you have to routinely submit to them reports detailing the amounts of grains and such your going through, production volumes, and occasional brewhouse audits. Basically making sure a brewhouse isn't skating on its taxes. The FDA would come into play making sure ingredients are considered Generally Regarded as Safe, particularly if you were making some crazy specialty beer with an obscure ingredient. Something like Dogfish Head's Choc Lobster comes to mind. I don't know if cigar manufacturers deal with this sort of stuff or why its not handled by the same department but thats the grist(beer pun) from a beer standpoint. I can say though there is a lot of stuff commercial brewing operations can't do that is standard practice in the homebrew world because of these sorts of regulations.

 

[navyvet]

the regulations that are already in place were fine. no one under 18 is even allowed in a tobacco shop. now cigarettes i can see because i started smoking before i was 18 but i was probly over the age of 19 before i actually purchased a cigar. but i did start smoking cigars before i was 18 as well. but nothing that came from any cigar company made me want to smoke, i picked them up because my grampa was my hero and he smoke them. there is no youth interest in cigars or very very little. what they are doing is not protecting our youth any more than before just a stupid waste of tax dollars to hinder the sale of tobacco. just look at some of the other countries and how regulated they are it will be like that here someday in the near future which is a shame... you think about how many people are killed every year with alcohol you would think the taxes on alcohol would be astronomical

 

[HIM*]

FWIW the taxes on beer are usually the most expensive 'ingredient' in making the beer. On average more than 40% of the cost a consumer pays for a beer goes towards local, state, and federal taxes. Per the TTB large cigars are taxed at 52.75% of sales price, but not to exceed $402.60, per 1000 units. Higher but comparable. Regardless I don't think more regulation and higher taxing is the way to approach any of this. All that does is suck more money from the people and put up more red tape. What we need is distinction that sets the premium cigar market apart from the rest of the tobacco industry.

 

[navyvet]

FWIW the taxes on beer are usually the most expensive 'ingredient' in making the beer. On average more than 40% of the cost a consumer pays for a beer goes towards local, state, and federal taxes. Per the TTB large cigars are taxed at 52.75% of sales price, but not to exceed $402.60, per 1000 units. Higher but comparable. Regardless I don't think more regulation and higher taxing is the way to approach any of this. All that does is suck more money from the people and put up more red tape. What we need is distinction that sets the premium cigar market apart from the rest of the tobacco industry.

Yeah but i hink the cost to make a cigar is way more than making a beer. I am just saying alcohol is widely affordable, in alot of cases alot more affordable then smoking cigars. Wih my daily budget fir cigars i could easily buy 3 cases a beer a day natty light all day everyday . I think alcohol has a much more negitive impact on the ecconomy as well compaired to premium cigars

 

[HIM*]

Yeah but i hink the cost to make a cigar is way more than making a beer. I am just saying alcohol is widely affordable, in alot of cases alot more affordable then smoking cigars. Wih my daily budget fir cigars i could easily buy 3 cases a beer a day natty light all day everyday . I think alcohol has a much more negitive impact on the ecconomy as well compaired to premium cigars

How your budget rations out depends on what you like as both markets have high and low ends in terms of pricing. I couldn't tell you what it costs to make a cigar but if you look at the bundle market they've proven it can be pretty cheap and still be profitable. You could buy a bundle of sticks or maybe a Davidoff or two. In the same sense you can get a keg of natty light or a couple bottles of Bourbon County. Ultimately its how you choose to spend.
I don't think pointing the finger at alcohol does anything but bring unwanted negativity to something else people enjoy. IMO the focus should be about whats good for the premium cigar industry not tobacco vs alcohol. I will say though Hello Kitty branded wine is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Happy Idiot]

I prefer Sponge Bob Scotch myself.

 

[StogieFisher]

Meow what is going on here? Leave my hello kitty wine alone!

Oh, and yes... money talks...

 

[JonHuber]

BOTL - My intent was not to throw alcohol/wine under the bus, but rather, pose the question--WHY does the FDA stay out of the alcohol business yet wants to regulate premium cigars? It would appear they are both "agricultural commodities(?)"

Again, I think it comes down to $ + Politicians = Influence.

Found this today, as well:


Clearly, there is some bias, hypocrisy, and corruption in what we believe is our "government for the people."

Jon Huber
Crowned Heads

 

[bwhite220]

Pussification of America.

 

[HIM*]

I guess it depends what sort of regulation your expecting to see. I'll admit its confusing where the FDA steps in and where its left to other departments. I don't think your trying to throw alcohol under the bus I just thought I might be in a unique position to clear up how heavily regulated the brewing industry is by the FDA. A recent example to give an idea of their part in things is the TTB decided certain beers don't meet their definition of 'malt beverage' making them fall in the FDAs jurisdiction. As a result breweries need to go through lab testing for mandatory FDA labeling regulations like nutritional info, ingredient listing, etc for those beers. As far as package design and label approval I believe that has to go through the TTB but is still based on the regulations laid out by the FDA.
If this is what they want of cigar manufacturers I believe they would have to get FDA approval the leaf is GRAS which could be a huge obstacle. Unless the stuff they grandfathered in lets you show market equivalence with the TTB possibly by passing need for premarket approval by the FDA. Its definitely a complex issue that doesn't always make sense. Maybe this clears some things though and hopefully doesn't come off the wrong way.

 

[navyvet]

How your budget rations out depends on what you like as both markets have high and low ends in terms of pricing. I couldn't tell you what it costs to make a cigar but if you look at the bundle market they've proven it can be pretty cheap and still be profitable. You could buy a bundle of sticks or maybe a Davidoff or two. In the same sense you can get a keg of natty light or a couple bottles of Bourbon County. Ultimately its how you choose to spend.
I don't think pointing the finger at alcohol does anything but bring unwanted negativity to something else people enjoy. IMO the focus should be about whats good for the premium cigar industry not tobacco vs alcohol. I will say though Hello Kitty branded wine is pretty ridiculous.

Agreed. That wasnt my intention. I was just calling attention to other marketed products the goverment deems unsafe

 

[Le Buzz]

There are many layers of bullshit to shovel through until you get to the truth, and even then when you find out why it is the way it is you won't be satisfied with the answer. I'll give you an example: Obamacare. Look up Jonathan Gruber on YouTube, the architect of Obamacare. The guy is such a self-absorbed douchebag who knows nothing about what it takes to run an actual business but because he's an economist at MIT gets to dictate how to screw this entire country and get paid $400k from our tax dollars to do it.

Be it corruption, ego, political favors, what have you, the truth is that our government is so putrid down to the core. We have the power of information and truth on our side. It takes a commitment to keep fighting, keep airing corruption and tyranny so they have nowhere to hide. Let's face it, cigars being regulated by the FDA is tyrannical, full stop. Love Crowned Heads and hope you can weather the storm.

 

[jimmy_d]

BOTL - My intent was not to throw alcohol/wine under the bus, but rather, pose the question--WHY does the FDA stay out of the alcohol business yet wants to regulate premium cigars? It would appear they are both "agricultural commodities(?)"

Again, I think it comes down to $ + Politicians = Influence.

Found this today, as well:


Clearly, there is some bias, hypocrisy, and corruption in what we believe is our "government for the people."

Jon Huber
Crowned Heads

Agreed, Jon. There is a lot more money coming from alcohol than tobacco that is lining the pockets in DC. I won't (and can't) get political but I sure hope Crowned Heads pulls through this whole debacle.

 

[HIM*]

You have to understand that the alcohol industry is not only more heavily regulated but has been for some time now. Regulations on manufacturing, import, packaging, labeling, sale, distribution, etc are all things the industry has been abiding by yet is just being enforced on cigars. I love cigars, yes I think the regulations are stupid, but I truly feel there's a lot of justified yet misplaced anger and frustration here.

 

[JonHuber]

BOTL - A /very/ good morning to ya...


Cheers!

Jon Huber
Crowned Heads