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BOTL UPCOMING MAINTENANCE
Hi Everyone, as mentioned in my introduction post, BOTL needs quite a bit of updating, patching and whatever else I might come across. Over the next few weekends BOTL may be unreachable on occasion as I do migrations or updates, etc. Just be patient - we'll be back! I'll generally try to keep these maintenances until later in the evenings.
First One?
- Thread starter bballbaby
- Start date
Mitch
BOM 2/09-Keeper BOTtLe
There shouild be a good used gun trade with the regular gun shops then.
There's a pawn shop in Lansing called Dicker & Deal on Cedar St. They have handguns but now I know why the gal I called said it was run by some other business name. They must lease the floor space to this other company.
Learn something new every day! Thanks Boppa.
BBall,
Depends on what you're looking for ... defensive weapon or offensive. Handguns are defensive weapons with longuns being offensive.
Since you mentioned home defense a handgun would suffice. You also mention that you've been shooting for years, so I assume you know "how" to shoot. But that being said, I would still rather grab my 870 vice my G21 if someone breaks in my house. I can cover more area and have more punch.
It all boils down to what you're comfortable with too. Also, if you think your wife/girlfriend/capable son or daughter may use it too, go with the shotgun - much better for those that may or may not have good handgun control.
Good luck choosing.
later,
Depends on what you're looking for ... defensive weapon or offensive. Handguns are defensive weapons with longuns being offensive.
Since you mentioned home defense a handgun would suffice. You also mention that you've been shooting for years, so I assume you know "how" to shoot. But that being said, I would still rather grab my 870 vice my G21 if someone breaks in my house. I can cover more area and have more punch.
It all boils down to what you're comfortable with too. Also, if you think your wife/girlfriend/capable son or daughter may use it too, go with the shotgun - much better for those that may or may not have good handgun control.
Good luck choosing.
later,
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Hot_Sauce
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
As mentioned shotgun for home defense.
HK's are very nice pistols I have 2 usps .40 &.45C and have never had a problem with either one of them. They are also very accurate. Highly recomend.
PS: If you go HK get night sites.
HK's are very nice pistols I have 2 usps .40 &.45C and have never had a problem with either one of them. They are also very accurate. Highly recomend.
PS: If you go HK get night sites.
i ended up getting the wife a cheapy S&W Sigma .40
for myself i went with a springfield .40. SHot several and like this one this most. my brother prefers it over his HK USP .40.
The price was way right for me too.
for myself i went with a springfield .40. SHot several and like this one this most. my brother prefers it over his HK USP .40.
The price was way right for me too.
Mitch
BOM 2/09-Keeper BOTtLe
I respectfuly disagree with that statement. There was a time when handguns were across the board marginal in stopping power, but today this is not the case. Many high quality new rounds have been developed and the quality of ammunition over the old ball ammo of half a century ago is night and day.
It's no longer uncommon to see pistols be the first choice for house clearing and other short range close quarters combat senarios. What makes anything an offensive or defensive action is the type of tactics used IMO.
Not trying to bust your chops, but I keep hearing people say this and it dosn't hold up. Maybe if you are a soldier on a battle field with heavy armor all around, but not for Police and civilians like us in expected conditions today.
Hi Mitch,
That's what's great about opinions ... we get to discuss them. Here's mine expanded a little ...
If I'm on a traffic stop and someone pulls a weapon or I see one, I go on defense and that defense involves my sidearm. The stats tell us that most situations that involve shootings are 3-5 rounds, in 3-5 seconds, within 3-5 feet. We're trying to keep the badguy from killing us, to me and most of my BOTB (badge) that's defense.
On the other hand, if I go to a domestic, known to have weapons involved, I'm going in with either my 870 or my AR. I'm going to take all the advantage I can get and I'll take a long gun over a hand gun anytime. From my POV it's safer and a lot more accurate from a greater distance.
Look at any given felony stop. I can guarantee you that most LE's that get out of their squad will do so with a long gun - better offense. Because you're going to want to stay as far away as possible until it's safe.
Remember what Ma'Bell used to say "long distance, the next best thing to being there."
Thanks for the rings too - back at ya'.
later,
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According to the experts, get a shotgun.
1) if you get waken in the middle of the night, you are in no position to aim and shoot with any accuracy.
2) Your adrenillian? will be pumping so much that you won't be able to hit anything with a handgun.
3) It's harder to shoot yourself in the foot as you scramble for your weapon.
1) if you get waken in the middle of the night, you are in no position to aim and shoot with any accuracy.
2) Your adrenillian? will be pumping so much that you won't be able to hit anything with a handgun.
3) It's harder to shoot yourself in the foot as you scramble for your weapon.
Mitch
BOM 2/09-Keeper BOTtLe
I'm not saying that Longuns are inferior to pistols all the time or even in general, I'm saying I don't like the blanket statements. First there is still a lot of misinformation out there about what a shotgun will and will not do. One thing that it will not do is open up it's patern into a wide cone at short range. Actualy it's just as easy to miss with a shotgun as a pistol at short range especialy if the shooting stance gets ackward like around corners, under beds, in closets etc.
Now lets talk use of force matrix, safe to say that you are far more likely to need a use of force far below deadly force than to go in shooting. I'm sure you've heard of the stories of someone with a shotgun turning a wrestling match into a gun fight because they couldn't make the weapon safe. When you walk in on the domestic in progress what options have you lost because you know have a shotgun instead of a pistol you could holster.
In your felony stop, great! use everyone with as much firepower as you can, but what happens when it's not the SRT and you and your partner now have five guys from the SRV on the deck and need to cuff them before they get bold, you gonna walk up with a shotgun to cuff them? Need two hands to manage that beast.
Now my biggest point, firepower is not one shot stops, its how quickly you can take out all the targets. If you have to engage in multiple directions, on multiple targets, some at ackward angles, possibly while injured the shotgun or AR is always slower at close range. Try shooting your pistol course with a shotgun and see how your times are!
And my last point is what works for well trained soldiers and LEO's does not translate to civilians well. Longuns take more training to master, if you hand someone a pistol and send them through a house and say point it where you are headed at all times and bingo they will do it 80% correctly. They will also be able to quickly point it at any direction if a target appears. They will naturaly pull the weapon close to the body if grabbed.
Same exercise with a long gun and the weapon is leading around corners, they can't quickly turn to engage targets, feet get twisted all kinds of strange ways on stairs and weapons retention is a total loss.
Shotguns are still a good choice often, just not every single time, just saying there is a big difference between living on a ranch and living on a houseboat, Marine vs 85lb single mom, etc.
Now lets talk use of force matrix, safe to say that you are far more likely to need a use of force far below deadly force than to go in shooting. I'm sure you've heard of the stories of someone with a shotgun turning a wrestling match into a gun fight because they couldn't make the weapon safe. When you walk in on the domestic in progress what options have you lost because you know have a shotgun instead of a pistol you could holster.
In your felony stop, great! use everyone with as much firepower as you can, but what happens when it's not the SRT and you and your partner now have five guys from the SRV on the deck and need to cuff them before they get bold, you gonna walk up with a shotgun to cuff them? Need two hands to manage that beast.
Now my biggest point, firepower is not one shot stops, its how quickly you can take out all the targets. If you have to engage in multiple directions, on multiple targets, some at ackward angles, possibly while injured the shotgun or AR is always slower at close range. Try shooting your pistol course with a shotgun and see how your times are!
And my last point is what works for well trained soldiers and LEO's does not translate to civilians well. Longuns take more training to master, if you hand someone a pistol and send them through a house and say point it where you are headed at all times and bingo they will do it 80% correctly. They will also be able to quickly point it at any direction if a target appears. They will naturaly pull the weapon close to the body if grabbed.
Same exercise with a long gun and the weapon is leading around corners, they can't quickly turn to engage targets, feet get twisted all kinds of strange ways on stairs and weapons retention is a total loss.
Shotguns are still a good choice often, just not every single time, just saying there is a big difference between living on a ranch and living on a houseboat, Marine vs 85lb single mom, etc.
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Mitch,
Couldn't have said it better. Won't argue the finer points, don't want to take this thread off on a tangent.
later,
Couldn't have said it better. Won't argue the finer points, don't want to take this thread off on a tangent.
later,
Mitch
BOM 2/09-Keeper BOTtLe
In the IPSC group around here, the XD's are taking over the Glocks in the production class of competition. Fine weapons! I've got way too many Glocks, mags etc. to switch now, but if I wasn't already so extablished with Glock it would be hard to decide.
I was thinking of a handgun myself but my father said a shotgun would be better. Because its big enough to stop anyone but you don't have to worry about going through the intruder and hitting other people.
Soundwave13
BoM Feb 2010
You just opened a whole can of worms with that comment.
Mitch will now privide you with a series of essays...
okemyeye
Mitch will now privide you with a series of essays...
okemyeyeno offense, but you're father watches to many hollywood movies. the problem with that shotgun is that it will knock the intruder off his feet and into the loved one standing behind him, thus causing them harm anyhow:bouncetau
seriously though, if your loved one is behind the intruder and you shoot anyhow, you probably shouldn't own a gun in the first place. unless your a sniper or highly trained and equally skilled, i would advise against shooting a gun at someone with someone else behind them. "2 kills, 1 shot" only works if your tom beringer.
and unless your shooting super charged ammo (+P+) from a 500 magnum, i don't think it's gonna go thru someone. but Mitch can certainly clarify that statement.
Mitch
BOM 2/09-Keeper BOTtLe
Hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
OK on shotguns read my prevous esay in this thread about the pro's and cons.
As to shotguns sending people flying from the impact - to ever action there is an equal and oposite reaction. If 100% of the energy stops with the bad guy (no shoot through) the impact force is equal to the recoil of the shotgun less a tiny bit for lost friction. A shotgun impact is like getting hit by a fast baseball no magic catapult action.