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Greatest Baseball Player of All Time
- Thread starter RonC
- Start date
openendstraight
Grand Corona
Click the link below and read for your self. I read the autobiography of the Babe, not all of which was flattering, but he was decades before his time as a baseball player
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babe_Ruth"] George Herman Ruth, Jr. [/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babe_Ruth"] George Herman Ruth, Jr. [/ame]
I grew up watching the Big Red Machine and imho Pete Rose is the best player to ever play the game.
He did gamble and gamble on baseball but as a player he was the best, he didn't get the name "Charlie Hustle" by jogging to first when he knew he would be out. He played hard every day, every play and was damn good. the premadonna's today can't hold Pete Rose's jock strap.
Electric Sheep
Dsicle - BoM Dec 06
I do not dispute Pete Rose's skill, determination, talent, ability, longevity, or hustle on the field. He was one helluva ball player and certainly one of the best to ever play the game.
I do, however, dispute his "greatness". In the end, he was not "great" for the game of baseball.
I do, however, dispute his "greatness". In the end, he was not "great" for the game of baseball.
He is one of the most controversial players in the game now, but during his playing days he played with a passion like no other. I do also believe he belongs in the Hall of Fame, I do not think he will be inducted while he is alive but will oneday be inducted, probably after I'm dead.
greatest of all time, Babe Ruth hands down. as for Pete Rose he should get in the hall. He bet on baseball as a manager and never cheated. If they are going to put Bonds who did cheat by shooting steriods.
openendstraight
Grand Corona
How good a ballplayer was Pete Rose? Was he one of the greatest players of all time? Or was he overrated and not nearly the player that a lot of sportswriters seem to think he was? Does he belong in the Hall-of-Fame? Just how good was he? This is what we'll try to determine.
He did get more hits in his career than Cobb, Aaron, Mays, Rod Carew or any other player to ever play the game. Certainly a great accomplishment. He is also the only player to play 500 games at five different positions. But do these facts make him one of the greatest players of all time?
Let's first look at how he played defensively. He did play five different positions, but the problem is he never played any of these positions very well. When he first came to the majors he played second base. He had a good enough throwing arm for this position, but he was very limited in his fielding range. He even admits this. For example, in 1965 when both Rose and Joe Morgan both played second base and played approximately the same number of games(Rose played five more), Morgan had 89 more assists. Overall, Pete he was a less than average defensive second baseman.
In the outfield he was good at charging the ball and getting rid of the ball quickly. But he had a weak arm and was not good at going deep and catching up to the ball. Overall, he was not a very good outfielder.
Rose next played four seasons at third base. This was his worst position. He not only had a weak arm from third base, but often threw extremely wild when fielding the ball to his left when trying to hurry the throw. In the years 1976 and 1977, Pete played in a total of more games than third baseman Mike Schmidt, but had a two year total of 217 less assists than Mike. This is
a huge difference.
The last part of his career he played first base. This was his best position. Although never one of the League's better first baseman, he was adequate. One problem was that during this part of his career, most first sackers were much better hitters than he was.
So his fielding was far from Hall-of-Fame caliber. But now let's look at his greatest asset, his hitting. He does have the record for the most hits ever.
The records show that he ended his career with 4256 hits, which is 65 more than second place finisher Ty Cobb. But the records also show that he had 2624 more at bats than Cobb, and 1686 more than second place finisher Hank Aaron.
Rose holds the record of the most at bats of any player with 14,053. That is one heck of a total. And that, in my opinion, is his greatest feat. Clearly there were a large number of players that if they had as many at bats as Pete, would have gotten more hits. Many, like Rod Carew, Ty Cobb, Wade Boggs, and Tony Gwynn would get many, many more hits than 4256.
So the number of hits Rose got was not what made him great, it was the large number of at bats. Now Rose did not hit many homeruns, drive in many runs, nor steal many bases. Given that he batted ahead of many great hitters throughout his career, he didn't really receive a large number of walks, or score a terrific number of runs. (In the 1961-1976 area, seven players
scored more runs per game than Pete Rose, while none had better RBI producers hitting behind them.) But Rose did come to bat many, many times.
He was able to play his entire career without major injuries, play through many minor injuries, play for many years, play for teams scoring lots of runs, and bat in the top part of the order. He did these things better than anyone who ever played the game. That alone, in my opinion, makes him a Hall-of-Fame player, but not one of the greatest players of all time.
He did get more hits in his career than Cobb, Aaron, Mays, Rod Carew or any other player to ever play the game. Certainly a great accomplishment. He is also the only player to play 500 games at five different positions. But do these facts make him one of the greatest players of all time?
Let's first look at how he played defensively. He did play five different positions, but the problem is he never played any of these positions very well. When he first came to the majors he played second base. He had a good enough throwing arm for this position, but he was very limited in his fielding range. He even admits this. For example, in 1965 when both Rose and Joe Morgan both played second base and played approximately the same number of games(Rose played five more), Morgan had 89 more assists. Overall, Pete he was a less than average defensive second baseman.
In the outfield he was good at charging the ball and getting rid of the ball quickly. But he had a weak arm and was not good at going deep and catching up to the ball. Overall, he was not a very good outfielder.
Rose next played four seasons at third base. This was his worst position. He not only had a weak arm from third base, but often threw extremely wild when fielding the ball to his left when trying to hurry the throw. In the years 1976 and 1977, Pete played in a total of more games than third baseman Mike Schmidt, but had a two year total of 217 less assists than Mike. This is
a huge difference.
The last part of his career he played first base. This was his best position. Although never one of the League's better first baseman, he was adequate. One problem was that during this part of his career, most first sackers were much better hitters than he was.
So his fielding was far from Hall-of-Fame caliber. But now let's look at his greatest asset, his hitting. He does have the record for the most hits ever.
The records show that he ended his career with 4256 hits, which is 65 more than second place finisher Ty Cobb. But the records also show that he had 2624 more at bats than Cobb, and 1686 more than second place finisher Hank Aaron.
Rose holds the record of the most at bats of any player with 14,053. That is one heck of a total. And that, in my opinion, is his greatest feat. Clearly there were a large number of players that if they had as many at bats as Pete, would have gotten more hits. Many, like Rod Carew, Ty Cobb, Wade Boggs, and Tony Gwynn would get many, many more hits than 4256.
So the number of hits Rose got was not what made him great, it was the large number of at bats. Now Rose did not hit many homeruns, drive in many runs, nor steal many bases. Given that he batted ahead of many great hitters throughout his career, he didn't really receive a large number of walks, or score a terrific number of runs. (In the 1961-1976 area, seven players
scored more runs per game than Pete Rose, while none had better RBI producers hitting behind them.) But Rose did come to bat many, many times.
He was able to play his entire career without major injuries, play through many minor injuries, play for many years, play for teams scoring lots of runs, and bat in the top part of the order. He did these things better than anyone who ever played the game. That alone, in my opinion, makes him a Hall-of-Fame player, but not one of the greatest players of all time.
Electric Sheep
Dsicle - BoM Dec 06
I think Rose should be in the Hall as well, because of his long on field career that piled up the stats. 4256 is hard to talk bad about, even when his total # of at bats is brought into the question. Plus, like you said, he gambled as a manager, not a player.
But because of that gambling, I think he put a hurt on the game...and definitely on his public perception, which is why I dispute his "greatness".
But because of that gambling, I think he put a hurt on the game...and definitely on his public perception, which is why I dispute his "greatness".
Electric Sheep
Dsicle - BoM Dec 06
BTW I think Bonds belongs in the hall as well, even with the 'roids.
But that doesn't mean I like him or what he did. :sarcastic
But that doesn't mean I like him or what he did. :sarcastic
Electric Sheep
Dsicle - BoM Dec 06
Good one. He's top 10 for sure, probably top 5 and a good argument could be made that he's the greatest.
I'd say some of the potential "greatest" guys are (in no particular order):
POSITION PLAYERS
Joe DiMaggio
Babe Ruth
Willie Mays
Lou Gehrig
Ted Williams
Hank Aaron
Stan Musial
Ty Cobb
Mickey Mantle
Honus Wagner
PITCHERS
Roger Clemens
Cy Young
Greg Maddux
Walter Johnson
Tom Seaver
Pedro Martinez
Satchel Paige
Randy Johnson
Sandy Koufax
Mariano Rivera
Notice how many of those pitchers are recent players? That says something. And then just look how many of these guys were Yankees. Wow.
NOTE: By all accounts, save one, Barry Bonds should be one of those top 10 position players. His number show that he's better than almost all those guys. But that one ding on his record is a doosy. It's too early to say what kind of long-term impact the 'roids will have on his standing as one of the greatest, but it's certainly easy to say that it's clouded the issue. For now, as close as we are to it right now, I just gotta leave him off the list. Ask me again in 20 years.
:headroll:
I'd say some of the potential "greatest" guys are (in no particular order):
POSITION PLAYERS
Joe DiMaggio
Babe Ruth
Willie Mays
Lou Gehrig
Ted Williams
Hank Aaron
Stan Musial
Ty Cobb
Mickey Mantle
Honus Wagner
PITCHERS
Roger Clemens
Cy Young
Greg Maddux
Walter Johnson
Tom Seaver
Pedro Martinez
Satchel Paige
Randy Johnson
Sandy Koufax
Mariano Rivera
Notice how many of those pitchers are recent players? That says something. And then just look how many of these guys were Yankees. Wow.
NOTE: By all accounts, save one, Barry Bonds should be one of those top 10 position players. His number show that he's better than almost all those guys. But that one ding on his record is a doosy. It's too early to say what kind of long-term impact the 'roids will have on his standing as one of the greatest, but it's certainly easy to say that it's clouded the issue. For now, as close as we are to it right now, I just gotta leave him off the list. Ask me again in 20 years.
:headroll:
I'm not a big baseball fan and definitely haven't watched/played/experienced as much as you guys have but here's what I think.
GOAT: Babe Ruth hands down.. I live in Pakistan and this man is legend here so go figure.
Best Hitter: Pete Rose
Best Swing: Ken Griffey Jr. (best swing I have ever seen a home run swing if one ever existed)
Best Pitcher: I would say Clemens but with all the doping who knows
Best Reliever: No doubt about it Mariano takes it the man is as close to automatic as it gets.
GOAT: Babe Ruth hands down.. I live in Pakistan and this man is legend here so go figure.
Best Hitter: Pete Rose
Best Swing: Ken Griffey Jr. (best swing I have ever seen a home run swing if one ever existed)
Best Pitcher: I would say Clemens but with all the doping who knows
Best Reliever: No doubt about it Mariano takes it the man is as close to automatic as it gets.
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openendstraight
Grand Corona
Best Hitter: Ted Williams or Ty Cobb
Best Pitcher: Cy Young
But the others are hard to argue against
Electric Sheep
Dsicle - BoM Dec 06
Yeah uh, best hitter (IMHO anyways) is Ted Williams. Sure Pete Rose has the most hits, but that doesn't mean he was the best skilled hitter; just that he played hard and consistent for a long ass time. And man it's hard to talk about Ty Cobb, who I think was a phenomenal hitter, but he played in the dead ball era, which almost seems like an entirely different game statistically. I do think Cobb was the best pure hitter until Ruth revolutionized the game tho, but Ted Williams was the best pure hitter afterwards.
Electric Sheep
Dsicle - BoM Dec 06
Oh yeah, and best pitcher--that's a really hard one to call since there are infinitely more variables involved and changes to the game over time, but taking everything into consideration, I'm gonna have to give the edge to Roger Clemens...and that's really tough for me to do considering Walter Johnson's freakin' legendary play, but it was SUCH a different era (again, dead ball) and they didn't have the rotations and the way batters approached the game was different and the types of pitches being thrown were different and the competition is much stiffer now, etc. All in all tho, it's really hard to argue that Roger Clemens isn't the best pitcher ever, but if he's not then it's gotta be Walter Johnson.
Of course, then there's the Satchel Paige argument. He didn't have the opportunities of Walter Johnson or Roger Clemens of course, but he might have had more pure skill than anyone ever to hurl a ball.
Of course, then there's the Satchel Paige argument. He didn't have the opportunities of Walter Johnson or Roger Clemens of course, but he might have had more pure skill than anyone ever to hurl a ball.
Best Hitters:#1 the rambling gambling Pete Rose he's the hit king
#2 Ty Cobb
#3 Ted Williams
#4 Hank Aaron
#5 Tony Gwynn
Best Pitchers:#1 Cy Young (over 500 wins)
#2 Walter Johnson
#3 Warren Spahn
#4 Roger Clemens
#5 Steve Carlton
Best Overall Player
Babe Ruth
Willie Mays
Ken Griffey Jr
Greg Maddox
Mike Schmidt
Cal Ripken Jr.
#2 Ty Cobb
#3 Ted Williams
#4 Hank Aaron
#5 Tony Gwynn
Best Pitchers:#1 Cy Young (over 500 wins)
#2 Walter Johnson
#3 Warren Spahn
#4 Roger Clemens
#5 Steve Carlton
Best Overall Player
Babe Ruth
Willie Mays
Ken Griffey Jr
Greg Maddox
Mike Schmidt
Cal Ripken Jr.
openendstraight
Grand Corona
When you look at the best hitters, don't look at totals. Look at HR's & hits on a per at bat basis.
Aaron, yeah he hit 757 HR's, but he had over 14k at bats. Ruth and Bonds had just over 9k each, you do the math. Yeah they all played over 20+ years, but keep in mind that Ruth was a pitcher for the first 6 years in Boston.
Aaron, yeah he hit 757 HR's, but he had over 14k at bats. Ruth and Bonds had just over 9k each, you do the math. Yeah they all played over 20+ years, but keep in mind that Ruth was a pitcher for the first 6 years in Boston.