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Propylene Glycol. WTH?

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About me: I'm a newbie. I enjoy a cigar a few times a year and usually buy the one I'm going to smoke a few hours before I light up. Recently I'm interested in putting together a tupperdor to keep several of my favorite smokes on hand rather then have to run out to the store when the rare opportunity to smoke comes up. I've read the stickies here and elsewhere and did the requisite searching prior to asking the following question:

Does propylene glycol work or not? I mean, I've read it all over the place that 50% pg solution is supposed to seek natural equilibrium at 70%rh but my real world experience is that pg solution is good for nothing at all. I've tried the flower pot foam as well as just a shot glass half full with 50% pg solution in a tupperware container for months undisturbed and it stabilizes somewhere around 85%rh which isn't that much better then just sitting a shot glass of water in there. So I'm stumped. For all I've read it seems folks have been using pg solution for eons and that means it must do something. Hell if I can make it happen.

Now, I've read all about the mo-bettah options like beads, kl, broveda, and gel. I've already purchased some broveda packs since that will be the best option for me. But here I got this huge bottle of lab grade 100% pg, a gal of distilled water, and several blocks of foam that I've been trying to get to work for months, maybe a couple years, I lose track. Does it really actually work or not? And if it does, WTH am I doing wrong?

Here's my testing set-up: I've got a pyrex glass pan with air-tight rubber lid. I have a tiny 1" electric fan that I place inside the container to gently keep the air mixing and circulating. The wires are very thin and pass between the lid and the pyrex without messing up the seal. I use two digital (caliber IV) hygrometers. Both hygrometers read 75% within 6hrs using the salt/water paste and remain stable for days or as long as I've let them sit in that environment. Using the shotglass half full of 50% pg solution it seems to stabilize at 84% rh. Same with the florist foam. Now with the florist foam I mix the pg and DI water in a cup first, measuring each with a syringe. Then I soak the foam to saturation and pat dry with paper towel. I let the foam sit out in the dry ambient air (34%rh) for half a day or so till it's surface is dry to the touch. Then I place this foam into the test container. It also stabilizes at 85%rh. In all cases temperature has remained 73*F +/- 1* and has not appeared to greatly affect the result.

Please let me know what you guys think. Thanks for your time.
J
 

Cigary43

Just Another Ashhole
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Either use Beads or KL...the poly/glycol is a mixture that you have to maintain which means...more work for you. Yes, it will work but the constant having to keep it at it's peak is going to cost you time. Bovedas work well and that would be #3 on my list of what to use. KL is first, beads second. KL is most cost effective and I have 35 humidors that will tell you it works in everything.
 
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Neither of you actually read my post, did you?
TL; DR?

No, but seriously, I have no idea on how to stabilize the pg solution to an rh viable for cigar storage. From the get go I was told to not even mess with it, and I doubt most "modern" smokers use it. The foam is just a passive humidifier, and there's a higher risk for mold. If you're really determined to get it to work, then keep researching. We just wanted to save you the headache
 
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I can't help you. I had the same issue and then my foam grew mold one day and I just tossed everything. (My humidor &my PG.) And just use Tupperware and boveda now.
 
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Neither of you actually read my post, did you?
...If you're really determined to get it to work, then keep researching. We just wanted to save you the headache
I've got Bovedas on the way so its an academic question for me now. I'd just like to know if my experience with pg is as good as it gets or if I've been doing something wrong. If it can be made to work I'd like to know how just because I'm curious.
 

StogieNinja

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My assumption has always been that the PG solution works because the cheap, thin Chinese humidors that the folks using PG solution are using in conjunction are horribly leaky.

As the cheap chumidors leak rH, the PG solution over-compensates, resulting in an overall rH of 70-ish %. So it "works" in that sort of way, if you can call it that.

That's my theory, anyway.
 
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Neither of you actually read my post, did you?
I am going to start off by saying bro no need to be hasty like this seriously. These guys are giving you their opinion, so be nice and not so harsh.

As per your question, yes the solution works but your approaching it the wrong way. What you need to do is have the foam dry and add water and solution slowly till you reach your desired RH. This is long and very time consuming process also tideus. Give it a try but be warned.
 
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Now we're on topic. That's all I was trying for with my snarky comment. No offense intended.

StogieNinja, my experience lends well to your theory. I just thought the 70%rh equilibrium was more scientifically based.

Jmartins, if what you say is true then it doesn't support the idea that pg solution seeks a 70%rh equilibrium at all. A true equilibrium wouldn't be dependent on quantity of pg solution. The salt paste for example truly has a 75%rh equilibrium regardless if you put a cup or a gallon of it in a container. If pg doesn't do that then the equilibrium stuff is a misnomer. Right?
 
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I just thought the 70%rh equilibrium was more scientifically based.
Nope, as was mentioned above, in a cheap, leaky humidor it will continually evaporate and the rh will be around 70%. In a quality, well seasoned humidor and sealed Tupperware the rh will be around 80-85%
 
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Do you have a source for that info Xavier? Or are you just speaking from experience?

If what Xavier says is fact then it just blows my mind the scale and depth of the misinformation used to market snake-oil (pg solution) to cigar enthusiasts.
 
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Rick, thank you! That is awesome.

So if I read correctly, 50% pg is the problem. It actually needs to be 68%, and by weight not volume. I'll have to test that and see.

Even though I measured 50% by volume, the 85%rh equilibrium I'm getting is exactly as that chart says it should be.

ETA: Looks like the difference in specific gravity between water and pg is relatively insignificant for our purposes. 68% by volume should be sufficient.

In theory, this means that as water evaporates from the pg solution saturated foam in a humidor it must be recharged only with distilled water and only enough to replace what has evaporated. Refilling with pg solution or in an imprecise way will throw off the rh equilibrium point.

I'm thinking I'd need to make the 68% solution, saturate the foam, and then weigh the saturated foam. To recharge the foam I'd have to place the foam back on the scale and add water till its weight equalled the original weight measurement.
 
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Your welcome! Please report back. I'm interested to see if a 68% (w/w) propylene glycol in distilled water solution will provide a 70% RH.
 
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Rick, I added some thoughts to the post above. I'm going to set up the test tonight and will report in the morning. (My test rig tends to stabilize pretty quickly with the fan running.)
 
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Test is in progress. Granted, its very early but based on what I'm seeing over the last half hour I think its a success!

I've spent enough time watching the hygrometer in my test rig to know when its stabilized. It got up to 69%rh in about 15min and sat there another 15min before just now bumping up to 70%rh. The 50% pg solution was at almost 80% by now and still rising steadily. Time will tell, but I'm optimistic.
 
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