Seed or soil?

[SilkSow]

I'm pretty new to the whole scene and totally new to the forum, so maybe you could clear something up for me:

Criollo 98, Corojo 99, Habano 2000, and Piloto Cubano are seeds that, like the seed of any plant, you can stick in the ground anywhere but produce dramatically different products depending on exactly where. What I think I often see on BOTL are rollers referring to the leaf available by the seed it came from. Nicaraguan-grown Criollo 98, for example, is sold on Leaf Only as "Nicaraguan", while WLT sells Nicaraguan Criollo as "Criollo 98" (judging by the wrapper description, as the primings don't specify) and they also offer "Nicaraguan Habano", "Honduras Habano", and a region ambiguous "Habano 2000 Wrapper". Leaf Only's offerings of leaf grown in the Dominican Republic come from Piloto seed, while WLT has Dominican "Corojo 99" and "Piloto Cubano" as well as primings and wrapper simply described as "Dominican".

So what exactly are Brothers of the Leaf referring to when they say something like "Criollo and Corojo go great together"? I can see that "Criollo" could safely be assumed Nicaraguan from our two primary sources, and maybe "Corojo" refers to WLT's Dominican Corojo since it's the only reference to the seed on either site.

Is that right?

 

[Marc L]

Not that I'm completely sure what you want to know but, from what it sounds like, yes.
You may want to ask that botl member what leaf they meant and/or, you might want to check with that distributor of said leaf directly to origin of growth.

 

[blisscigarco]

So what exactly are Brothers of the Leaf referring to when they say something like "Criollo and Corojo go great together"? I can see that "Criollo" could safely be assumed Nicaraguan from our two primary sources, and maybe "Corojo" refers to WLT's Dominican Corojo since it's the only reference to the seed on either site.

Is that right?

I believe that what they are saying is that they've managed to find some two leafs partially labeled with those names from some place(s) with which they were able to create a blend or two that they enjoyed.

 

[Sprouthog]

Tobacco is similar to coffee. There is a limited number of seed types and the end product takes on the chartistics of the soil and growing conditions of the area grown. The seed name remains the same but the country may change.

This is a good article on criollo and Corojo.

http://www.smokemag.com/0304/feature.htm

 

[SilkSow]

This is a good article on criollo and Corojo.

http://www.smokemag.com/0304/feature.htm

Thanks, I am familiar with that article, it is good. I just got the impression that some posters here were speaking in short hand or being even less specific than LO and WLT can be sometimes. Maybe I just started reading late into the threads or something. In either case, I guess blending ultimately comes down to experimenting, which I am totally into! It is challenging, however, to make educated guesses - I wish the sellers would consistently name their products, preferably Region Seed Priming.

 

[HIM*]

Sounds like you've got it right. Basically how the 2 vendors have them labeled is how people reference them. For the bit of overlap you'll see "LO" or "WLT" thrown in to specify.

 

[BrewinHooligan]

From my limited experience, the seeds of certain varieties will dictate one aspect of the leaf's flavor and the soil/climate the seed is grown in will play another roll. I know that with both my home rolls and with commercial sticks that list what is in their blends, the ones with corojo and criollo always seem to go over well for me. They don't all taste exactly the same, but they do tend to have some similar characteristics that I enjoy.

 

[blisscigarco]

Thanks, I am familiar with that article, it is good. I just got the impression that some posters here were speaking in short hand or being even less specific than LO and WLT can be sometimes. Maybe I just started reading late into the threads or something. In either case, I guess blending ultimately comes down to experimenting, which I am totally into! It is challenging, however, to make educated guesses - I wish the sellers would consistently name their products, preferably Region Seed Priming.

The thing is, that won't really help you that much. There is "tastes good" leaf and "tastes bad" leaf. And if you get any of the "bad" stuff into your blend, you're screwed. You get all "good" into your blend, and that cigar will be good. Doesn't matter the seed and source.

These guys who are big fans of "Corojo and Criollo" found some leaf with those words affixed to them that were "good." So they love that combo. If they'd got some shitty versions of leaf with those words affixed in the market materials, regardless of the source, they'd say they hate that combo (except for the influence of the boutique guys who use seed names as a sales angle; so lots of boutique fans have read that their fave sticks have "Corojo" and "Criollo.") There's a trillion other factors besides seed and source that make those things nearly irrelevant. Unfortunately the popular retailers don't list their stuff like that, "This one blows," "This one is good." Blow enough money in this game, roll enough bad leaf, you're not gonna care anymore about the seed names used in the retailers' promo materials. You're only gonna care if it's good leaf or bad leaf. So you want to get specific refs from guys like BH who've rolled something and had some luck. What did he buy, exactly? What exact SKU was it?

Maybe this doesn't make sense yet because you're coming from a certain frame of reference which is mostly coming from subtle marketing/sales pitches from all kinds of directions and sources and you're trying to sort it out and you haven't heard what I'm telling you here before. But you stick around and dump some cash and time and effort into the game and it'll get super clear. Guys don't brag as much about all the fail sticks they rolled. Those happened because there was some bad leaf in there.

Region/seed/priming comes way below sucks/doesn't suck in terms of info you'll wish you had.

 

[BrewinHooligan]

I forgot to mention there is also if the leaf was fermented and or how long it has aged. Those two are the biggest factors when it comes to the "shit leaf" and the "good leaf" bliss talks about. My mentor doesn't ferment his leaf, but he makes sure the fillers he gets are aged at least 4 years because that age plays a large factor in how good the leaf is going to be.

 

[SilkSow]

The thing is, that won't really help you that much. There is "tastes good" leaf and "tastes bad" leaf. ...
So you want to get specific refs from guys like BH who've rolled something and had some luck. What did he buy, exactly? What exact SKU was it?

Yes, of course! So I get some stuff so-and-so likes and then realize he has totally different taste than I do lol - Like I said, I'm totally into experimenting and finding out for myself. I rolled my first cigar ever on the 4th and have placed two more orders since

 

[HIM*]

FWIW the Corojo Jalapa they showed me at El Titan smelled a lot like the stuff we all have. Sweet cedar and pepper. Good leaf and bad leaf are different things I can't argue that but I don't think it hurts trying to become familiar with the characteristics of different tobacco varietals. So it's a little more than the affixed words, at least for me. I don't want to come off argumentative just saying that side of the hobby is a big part of the fun.

 

[SilkSow]

FWIW the Corojo Jalapa they showed me at El Titan smelled a lot like the stuff we all have. Sweet cedar and pepper. Good leaf and bad leaf are different things I can't argue that but I don't think it hurts trying to become familiar with the characteristics of different tobacco varietals. So it's a little more than the affixed words, at least for me. I don't want to come off argumentative just saying that side of the hobby is a big part of the fun.

Beautiful, sir. It is totally fun, as well as interesting and educational to discuss. I'm proud to make the topic the subject of my first thread!

I really enjoyed what the sweetness of the WLT PA binder and the depth of his Nicaragua Habano Viso added to the strong, earthy Nicaraguan Criollo seco and ligero I got from LO, whether I wrapped it in their CT 1DW Maduro broadleaf wrapper - very similar to aforementioned WLT PA binder - or, in a wild moment, their Nicaraguan Criollo binder! Can't wait to get my WLT Dominican Corojo ligero and Honduras Habano Wrapper and see what those can add! ...Yeah, specificity is WORDY, huh?

 

[webmost]

It's always griped me that when you go to buy a commercially rolled stick, you get only two kinds of information: disinformation and scant information... Same applies to a lesser extent to the leaves you buy. At least you get to smell them and handle them and burn a pinch and try different combinations.

 

[Jim D]

Yes, of course! So I get some stuff so-and-so likes and then realize he has totally different taste than I do lol - Like I said, I'm totally into experimenting and finding out for myself. I rolled my first cigar ever on the 4th and have placed two more orders since

Sounds like you're sliding down the slippery slope with us already!