US Embassy Attacks

[bandityo]

pull foreign aid i say

 

[mdwest]

pull foreign aid i say

This I absolutely agree with..

Dont want us there.. cool.. then we'll stop investing in your future.. (not like we have the money to spare anyway...)...

Dont want to provide ample protection for our diplomats?... cool with that too.. if you want to talk to us.. the door will always be open.. on C street in downtown Washington DC.. come see us anytime you like.. but we wont be footing the bill for keeping an embassy and consultate offices close by and convienient for you (we can put someone on a plane and let them come visit you for a few days or weeks to work something out whenever it serves our needs a hell of a lot cheaper than we can keep an embassy open.. )....

US citizens want to travel to these areas where we are not liked or properly supported.. cool.. just do so at your own risk.. know going in that there will be no consulate or embassy support if you go around acting like a jackass, loose your passport, or otherwise need assistance (buyer beware)...

I could absolutely get behind cutting off and/or reducing aid and diplomatic ties with MANY countries that we currently provide BILLIONS of dollars in support to..

 

[sean]

It would seem that the Muslim countries really don't want the U.S. around. If one obscure video clip about an anti-muslim film can incite such widespread violence against the U.S. than I'd say there is some deep seeded anger that needs to be recognized.

I for one would happily vote to withdraw all the U.S. financail aid to these countries, and many others, so as to get our own financial house more in order. IN short, quit giving money to other countries that we don't have. But I digress...

I agree, withdraw and stop giving them aid.. the only problem being that aid isn't given to the people of these nations rather to the governments to implement policies the US wants them to which in turn results in the anti-US sentiment amongst them. Egypt had a pro-US man in place, he was liberal and as non-Islamic as one could be in that region but was thrown out since he fell out of favour with the US what resulted is a government most educated Egyptians are strongly against. As far as Libya goes once again a man in absolute power, out of favour with the US, was brought down by people supported by the US. Anyway this is a completely different topic, the Arab spring resulted in events that the Western powers probably never thought they would because of one hate filled movie.

The point I'm trying to make is that these countries where attacks on US embassies are taking place have a power vaccum absolute leaders were replaced with make shift governments or one in transition which is trying to secure its footing and power and does not have the ability/willingness to stop a mob or civil uprising. I'm glad to say no such shit went down in Pakistan irrespective of the negative press we get and really, not to be insensitive because precious lives were lost, I'm very very happy that this news is not associated with Pakistan.. sure we burnt the US and Iraeli flags in protest but we haven't attacked the embassy which for me is a sign of hope for my people.

Flag burning or not, Daniyal is touching on something that most Americans fail to grasp and that is WHY so many people in the Muslim world carry a deep disdain for the American people. There are decades of botched foreign policy trailing behind us, from the creation and positioning of Israel (don't get me wrong, the Jews needed a home, but couldn't we have helped to put it in a nicer location?), to the backing of various leaders who would play ball with us, Saddam, Mubarak, etc...

So what is really going to solve this situation? More attacks? More Violence? I think it is just going reinforce the idea in the Muslim world that this is the Bible (and the Torah) vs the Quran. Obama is trying to be a peace-maker in this instance. I applaud his actions, but I am thinking that he is not doing ENOUGH peace making to warrant this response. In a sense, he'll have to step up his game if he is going to make any reparations.

 

[mdwest]

I spent the better part of the last 12 years traveling all over the Muslim world (spent significant amounts of time in Kuwait, UAE, Jordan, Iraq, and Afghanistan.. and have spent a little bit of time in Indonesia, Ganzhou China (province with a large Muslim population), Pakistan, Egypt, and other places..

While I would agree with you that PART of the problem is botched foreign policy.. We've made poor choices in who we back in foreign governments all over the world for the past 200 years.. this is not limited to the Muslim world.. we have backed the "wrong" guy all over latin america, asia, and even europe numerous times.. often for the wrong reasons.. and often to our own disadvantage..

I would also tell you that the solution neither involves moving Israel to another location (this would have just created another completely different set of problems) or playing peacemaker (or war monger for that matter)...

The core of the problem is cultural..

We simply do not get or understand that Arab and Persian (and Asian for that matter) cultures are thousands upon thousands of years old.. that while we will slowly change the priorities of these nations with the ever present influx of ipods, MTV, McDonalds, and playboy that we feed them.. that they are NOT like us.. that they do not share the same values.. etc.. and that while we might THINK that a 10 year long war or a 60 year long period of unrest is a long time.. that cultures and values systems that took eons to develop do not change overnight.. it is going to take far longer than a couple of generations to see the kind of changes (if they ever come at all) that we as Americans want to see.. (this does not make them wrong by the way.. we simply need to admit and understand that everyone else in the world is not an American, doesnt see things the same way we do.. and frankly.. many DONT WANT TO)...

Neither Arab or Persian cultures place a huge amount value or respect "peacemakers".. they havent since the dawn of time.. just because we want them to change and be accepting of our way of life, our priorities, and our values system doesnt mean that they are going to... even if we THINK we are "right" for pursuing it in a peaceful manner.. and think they are "wrong" for not accepting it.. ( I would say we are no more right than they are wrong.. it is just our linear way of looking at things.. we have a hard time accepting "different" and leaving it at that..)..

Western culture places little value or respect on dictators and authortarian leadership/government practices... (at least not much over the past few hundred years.. with a few notable exceptions..).. so we very naturally find many Arab and Persian regimes abhorrant.. without considering that culturally this is EXACTLY what their people want..

What happened after the "Arab Spring"?

Dictators were outsted and new governments were put in place..

Less than 12 months later.. whats going on?

Strong arm governments that suppress the free will of the people and lead with an iron fist (governments that were elected by the people) are running the show again... no real change at all..

While I am admittedly very hawkish by nature.. I do not advocate a war mongering approach as the solution to all of our problems in the middle east.. (I believe a measured and defined approach is far better)...

By the same token I would tell you my personal experience (and what history has shown us) is that the dove approach isnt the correct solution either..

Being "nice" has never been effective in the past.. and there is no evidence that supports that the peacemaker approach will be any more effective in the near term/future..

Middle eastern cultures respect very direct approaches and very definitive responses.. if you do X.. then we will do Y.. end of story.. no negotiation.. period.. and then stick to your guns and do exactly what you said you would do.. every single time... no exceptions..

Sure.. there will be a whole lot of hell raising, crying, and bantering about when things dont go their way (again.. this is cultural.. happens internally there too.. not this behavior is not reserved just for external issues).. but at the end of the day, everyone knows where you are coming from, and where you are going to..

Sabre ratting doesnt work...

and neither does apologizing, pleading, begging, or otherwise trying to kiss ass...

Say what you mean.. and mean what you say.. then follow through with your promises..

This is what they respect and understand..

 

[sean]

^agreed. 100%. You essentially flushed out, and itemized what I was tossing under "botched foreign policy" because you can't have a successful foreign policy if you fail to understand the foreign culture. Then you took it a step further by commenting about our economic/cultural imperialism.

Side note: how has this not been moved to the debate section?!

 

[strife]

from the creation and positioning of Israel (don't get me wrong, the Jews needed a home, but couldn't we have helped to put it in a nicer location?), to the backing of various leaders who would play ball with us, Saddam, Mubarak, etc...

I agree that we need to get out of others business and stop trying to nation build for our own economic gain but if any country is to be hated most for it why us and not England? And as far as Israel is concerned we had little to do with that. On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favor of a Partition Plan that created the State of Israel. The British reliquished their mandate over Palestine in 1948. War broke out between the Arabs and Jews soon after. The 1948 Arab-Israeli War, established the state of Israel as an independent state, with the rest of the British Mandate of Palestine split into areas controlled by Egypt and Transjordan.

 

[mdwest]

All depends on who you talk to as to who they hate the most...

Ask the average Afghan walking down the street who they hate most... Americans, Russians, or Brits... and the response probably 90% of the time will the the red coats...

They still havent forgotten the Anglo-Afghan War in the mid 1800's... Think they are elitists... Etc...