Ammonia / Sour Taste Coming from Cigars

[nickaragua]

So I put my hygrometer in a ziplock bag with a 65 boveda last night. I checked it this morning and was reading solid at 66 which is well within the advertised variance. Any suggestions as to how I can lower the humidity in my wine cooler? I've tried using leftover pieces of cedar and taking out my bovedas (only been a couple of days).

 

[Sirspanksalot]

Try adding dry KL?

 

[nickaragua]

Try adding dry KL?

Yup, I've tried that. Can I stick KL into the fridge to dry it out?

 

[ChefBoyRG54]

Try adding dry KL?

Yup, I've tried that. Can I stick KL into the fridge to dry it out?

if adding doesn't help it's easier(and cheap) to replace

 

[nickaragua]

Just cleaned out a new Tupperware container and am going to be deodorizing it with some baking soda. I'm going to transfer out all my sticks into this Tupperware container until I can figure out wtf is wrong with my wine cooler.

BTW, just checked up on my hygrometer and 65 RH Boveda, and the hygrometer is reading spot on at 65 RH. I think it's safe to rule out the calibration of my hygrometer now, right?

 

[cgraunke]

I would say yes!
Only other variable I can think of is your ambient temp/RH in your house...
Where do you live?
What's it like there right now?

 

[nickaragua]

I would say yes!
Only other variable I can think of is your ambient temp/RH in your house...
Where do you live?
What's it like there right now?

Well, I just tuppador'd my bomb from Clint with a 65 boveda so hopefully those don't get messed up.

I live in Orange County, CA. Ambient temp around this time of the year is usually high 70s to mid 80s with a high today of 80 and outdoor humidity at 61%. But since I have a wine cooler that regulates temperature wouldn't ambient temp not affect my cigar storage?

 

[cgraunke]

I'm really just brainstorming here, trying to address all possible topics.
My considerations there were two-fold:
- Condensation: A large differential between internal and external temp could cause condensation inside as the cooling systems runs constantly trying to keep up.
- Seal quality: If the room RH is significantly higher than the internal wineador RH and your seal is compromised somewhere, your Bovedas may not be able to keep up. (they may already be at "saturation"?)
Does anyone out there with more Boveda experience know how they react if they are constantly in an atmosphere with a higher RH? I've seen them dry up and get "crunchy" inside on the low end, but I've never tried to bring humidity down with a Boveda.
Regardless, it sounds like seal/room RH is a non-issue here.
I know you said you didn't detect any condensation, but like I said, I'm just kicking out ideas here...
Did we ever determine if your wineador was a compressor or a thermoelectric?
I think your problem would be the reverse if it were a compressor unit, getting too dry, but who knows with different draining and defrost designs.
Did we confirm if there was a drain hole and if that had been plugged or if it was open to room air?
You've already tried to pull down RH with dry KL and/or dry Spanish cedar, so it has to be creating moisture in the unit somehow...
When setting up another one just last month I had the drawers in for seasoning and the unit on for cooling and to help circulate air inside. As the room temp upstairs started getting in to the mid 80's (NewAir max temp setting is 66degF) I noticed some condensation buildup at the rear of the unit - drips coming down right below the fan. I moved it down to the basement where it never gets more than about 72degF and didn't have any trouble.
But, upstairs the drain hole was still open to room air. When I moved it downstairs I ran my electrical through that hole and plugged it up. I changed two variables, so I'm not sure how much affect each had on its own.
I'm running out of ideas for you buddy!

 

[nickaragua]

I'm really just brainstorming here, trying to address all possible topics.
My considerations there were two-fold:
- Condensation: A large differential between internal and external temp could cause condensation inside as the cooling systems runs constantly trying to keep up.
- Seal quality: If the room RH is significantly higher than the internal wineador RH and your seal is compromised somewhere, your Bovedas may not be able to keep up. (they may already be at "saturation"?)
Does anyone out there with more Boveda experience know how they react if they are constantly in an atmosphere with a higher RH? I've seen them dry up and get "crunchy" inside on the low end, but I've never tried to bring humidity down with a Boveda.
Regardless, it sounds like seal/room RH is a non-issue here.
I know you said you didn't detect any condensation, but like I said, I'm just kicking out ideas here...
Did we ever determine if your wineador was a compressor or a thermoelectric?
I think your problem would be the reverse if it were a compressor unit, getting too dry, but who knows with different draining and defrost designs.
Did we confirm if there was a drain hole and if that had been plugged or if it was open to room air?
You've already tried to pull down RH with dry KL and/or dry Spanish cedar, so it has to be creating moisture in the unit somehow...
When setting up another one just last month I had the drawers in for seasoning and the unit on for cooling and to help circulate air inside. As the room temp upstairs started getting in to the mid 80's (NewAir max temp setting is 66degF) I noticed some condensation buildup at the rear of the unit - drips coming down right below the fan. I moved it down to the basement where it never gets more than about 72degF and didn't have any trouble.
But, upstairs the drain hole was still open to room air. When I moved it downstairs I ran my electrical through that hole and plugged it up. I changed two variables, so I'm not sure how much affect each had on its own.
I'm running out of ideas for you buddy!

I've thought about some of these points too...
- Condensation: I completely understand how this works, and have checked inside to see if there has been any condensation build up anywhere inside, but failed to notice any.
- Seal Quality: I thought that maybe there's a leak somewhere since the RH in my room is higher than the RH in the wine cooler, but again, failed to notice any rips/tears/breaks in the seal anywhere around the wine cooler.
- Fridge is a thermo-electric 8 bottle wine cooler from Emerson with a drain hole that has been plugged with electric tape,

Is it possible to over-season a drawer? Maybe when I wiped it down the 3-4 times I did with DW, it was just too much? I did think about moving the wine cooler back downstairs where it is much, much cooler. My desktop humidor was always kept downstairs since that was much more susceptible to ambient temperature but didn't think that'd be an issue with my wine cooler since it's temp regulated.

Thanks for all your help and suggestion @cgarunke I really do appreciate it.

I'm going to transfer everything to a Tupperware and see if I can dry out the drawer a little.

 

[herfdog]

So..... is the theory here that overhumid humidor would cause the bad taste, and not cigar sickness/fermatention?

Some new cigar I get off newer boxes at the B&M taste more acide than ones from the box that had been in their humidor for a while... trying to find out if its the same issue; perhaps I need to do something to my humidor?

 

[nickaragua]

So..... is the theory here that overhumid humidor would cause the bad taste, and not cigar sickness/fermatention?

Some new cigar I get off newer boxes at the B&M taste more acide than ones from the box that had been in their humidor for a while... trying to find out if its the same issue; perhaps I need to do something to my humidor?

Well to my understanding, when a cigar is "sick" the cigar is going through a secondary fermentation process. During this process the cigar gives off an ammonia like smell.

I'm not completely discounting the possibility of my cigars being sick but I'm not putting all my eggs in one basket by saying they are, because my cigars don't give off that chemically smell.

But at the same time, plenty of people smoke their cigars at 69% RH and have no problems with over humdification. So I have no idea wtf is wrong with my cigars is all I'm saying lol.

Regarding your newer purchases it could be that the stogies are fresh and RoTT so they could need some time to rest and acclimate to whichever environment you're in. But then again, bases off of the issue I'm having...what do I know? Lol

 

[Ducttapegonewild]

Here is an idea, based of of Clint's suggestion of over saturation. Maybe get some brothers with dried out Boveda packs, if they rehydrate in your cooler, you've found the issue. Mind you, I wouldn't do that with the sticks in there, transfer them to your Tupperware and then put the packs in you cooler.

Just a thought, but, as someone who doesn't have an investment like yours, take it for what it's worth.

 

[cgraunke]

Is it possible to over-season a drawer? Maybe when I wiped it down the 3-4 times I did with DW, it was just too much?
I'm going to transfer everything to a Tupperware and see if I can dry out the drawer a little.

^^^This? Definitely!
IMHO you should never "wipe" your Spanish cedar. I know some people do, and I know it may work out just fine, but I'd rather not take any chances.

Multiple issues here:
- If you wipe down the cheaper humidors or trays, some of which are just thin veneer, you can cause warping, splitting, cracking, etc.
(this should not be the case with your solid wood drawers, but you COULD cause splinters to pull up from the wood)
- If you over-saturate the wood, you Bovedas or KL will likely never be able to pull all that moisture out. We use these mediums to control the more minor fluctuations in RH
- If the surface of the wood has any roughness whatsoever, you will be leaving some sort of particulate behind from whatever you're wiping with. To me, that's Russian Roulette with contamination.

My process has been to:
- Blast the drawers with an office duster to remove any residual wood dust.
- Load drawers in to cleaned/sterilized wineador.
- Add cleaned/sterilized dishes of distilled water in each drawer.
- Monitor daily with unit closed and any fans you planned to use running inside.
- When RH of air inside hits 72-73% remove water dishes.
- Let RH stabilize overnight, unit closed, fans running.
- Add KL (which is in the low 60s RH out of the new, sealed bag) wherever you plan to keep it when unit is full.
- Let RH stabilize overnight again
- When it reaches your desired RH, add cigars and feel good about your project!

I've done this seasoning process three times myself and ended up right at 65% every time.
I think I spritzed my KL two times over the course of the MN 15% RH winter, maybe three.

Again, this is just me. I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong, and that's fine. It worked for me, and it makes sense logically!

 

[nickaragua]

Here is an idea, based of of Clint's suggestion of over saturation. Maybe get some brothers with dried out Boveda packs, if they rehydrate in your cooler, you've found the issue. Mind you, I wouldn't do that with the sticks in there, transfer them to your Tupperware and then put the packs in you cooler.

Just a thought, but, as someone who doesn't have an investment like yours, take it for what it's worth.

I've got some dried bovedas laying around that I can use to test your theory...I'll give it a shot after I take out the stogies.

Thanks!

 

[nickaragua]

Is it possible to over-season a drawer? Maybe when I wiped it down the 3-4 times I did with DW, it was just too much?
I'm going to transfer everything to a Tupperware and see if I can dry out the drawer a little.

^^^This? Definitely!
IMHO you should never "wipe" your Spanish cedar. I know some people do, and I know it may work out just fine, but I'd rather not take any chances.

Multiple issues here:
- If you wipe down the cheaper humidors or trays, some of which are just thin veneer, you can cause warping, splitting, cracking, etc.
(this should not be the case with your solid wood drawers, but you COULD cause splinters to pull up from the wood)
- If you over-saturate the wood, you Bovedas or KL will likely never be able to pull all that moisture out. We use these mediums to control the more minor fluctuations in RH
- If the surface of the wood has any roughness whatsoever, you will be leaving some sort of particulate behind from whatever you're wiping with. To me, that's Russian Roulette with contamination.

My process has been to:
- Blast the drawers with an office duster to remove any residual wood dust.
- Load drawers in to cleaned/sterilized wineador.
- Add cleaned/sterilized dishes of distilled water in each drawer.
- Monitor daily with unit closed and any fans you planned to use running inside.
- When RH of air inside hits 72-73% remove water dishes.
- Let RH stabilize overnight, unit closed, fans running.
- Add KL (which is in the low 60s RH out of the new, sealed bag) wherever you plan to keep it when unit is full.
- Let RH stabilize overnight again
- When it reaches your desired RH, add cigars and feel good about your project!

I've done this seasoning process three times myself and ended up right at 65% every time.
I think I spritzed my KL two times over the course of the MN 15% RH winter, maybe three.

Again, this is just me. I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong, and that's fine. It worked for me, and it makes sense logically!

Sounds logical to me. We may have found the problem then. Question I have now is how do I take out some of the humidity in the wineador? Do I just leave it open for a day or so and let the drawer dry out a bit?

 

[cgraunke]

Is it possible to over-season a drawer? Maybe when I wiped it down the 3-4 times I did with DW, it was just too much?
I'm going to transfer everything to a Tupperware and see if I can dry out the drawer a little.

^^^This? Definitely!
IMHO you should never "wipe" your Spanish cedar. I know some people do, and I know it may work out just fine, but I'd rather not take any chances.

Multiple issues here:
- If you wipe down the cheaper humidors or trays, some of which are just thin veneer, you can cause warping, splitting, cracking, etc.
(this should not be the case with your solid wood drawers, but you COULD cause splinters to pull up from the wood)
- If you over-saturate the wood, you Bovedas or KL will likely never be able to pull all that moisture out. We use these mediums to control the more minor fluctuations in RH
- If the surface of the wood has any roughness whatsoever, you will be leaving some sort of particulate behind from whatever you're wiping with. To me, that's Russian Roulette with contamination.

My process has been to:
- Blast the drawers with an office duster to remove any residual wood dust.
- Load drawers in to cleaned/sterilized wineador.
- Add cleaned/sterilized dishes of distilled water in each drawer.
- Monitor daily with unit closed and any fans you planned to use running inside.
- When RH of air inside hits 72-73% remove water dishes.
- Let RH stabilize overnight, unit closed, fans running.
- Add KL (which is in the low 60s RH out of the new, sealed bag) wherever you plan to keep it when unit is full.
- Let RH stabilize overnight again
- When it reaches your desired RH, add cigars and feel good about your project!

I've done this seasoning process three times myself and ended up right at 65% every time.
I think I spritzed my KL two times over the course of the MN 15% RH winter, maybe three.

Again, this is just me. I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong, and that's fine. It worked for me, and it makes sense logically!

Sounds logical to me. We may have found the problem then. Question I have now is how do I take out some of the humidity in the wineador? Do I just leave it open for a day or so and let the drawer dry out a bit?

I think that sounds like a plan. Leave it open a day, then close it up, fans running, let it stabilize a day and get an RH reading.
"Rinse and repeat"

 

[Ducttapegonewild]

Smart guy that Clint, I'd use that over mine any day of the week.

 

[nickaragua]

Thank you guys both for your suggestions. Guess its time for another hygrometer or two. I'll report back periodically to update you guys

 

[cgraunke]

Good luck!

I'm sure you already have thoughts on hygros, but I would definitely recommend checking out the Ambient Weather units if your up in the air on what to buy.
I've got a single head unit and six remote sensors, the sensors are out of sight and I never have to open humis to check.
Whole setup cost me less than just one piece of the similar new Xikar line. (and has a greater flexibility/functionality)
(do a search here in "storage" and you'll find some great info from both Rupe and myself, including links and pictures)

 

[nickaragua]

Good luck!

I'm sure you already have thoughts on hygros, but I would definitely recommend checking out the Ambient Weather units if your up in the air on what to buy.
I've got a single head unit and six remote sensors, the sensors are out of sight and I never have to open humis to check.
Whole setup cost me less than just one piece of the similar new Xikar line. (and has a greater flexibility/functionality)
(do a search here in "storage" and you'll find some great info from both Rupe and myself, including links and pictures)

Yeah I've been looking at different hygrometers. Is the Ambient Weather hygrometer this one here ?

I remember seeing some similar units but can't remember the brand. I just can't justify spending $15 on a basic hygrometer. There has to be a better value hygrometer out there...