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Electric Sheep

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I think you took what Brad said too personally and missed his *ENTIRE* point: If they loose money NOW, consumers will end up paying more for gasoline LATER to make up for their losses.

That's not "market fluctuation", that's "pricing" in order to maintain record profits.
 

cvm4

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They had record profits because of the gap spread between refiners and the end product. Also, over the last few years the USD hasn't done so well and it takes that much more to buy a barrel of oil. Just my personal bias...
 
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I didn’t mean to make that sound personal, but claiming oil/energy companies are screwing the customers to make large profits is a baseless claim. Not even talking about all the factors that cause profits like futures and spreads (cvm4 discussed a little bit), because a company is in business to make profits. When you look at gas prices just look at barrel prices & now corn prices. Those is are world market and not controlled by the oil/energy companies. Complaining about oil/energy prices and being ticked off at the companies that bring the product to us is mainly based on ignorance of markets and company operations.
 

Fox

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I think you took what Brad said too personally and missed his *ENTIRE* point: If they loose money NOW, consumers will end up paying more for gasoline LATER to make up for their losses.

That's not "market fluctuation", that's "pricing" in order to maintain record profits.
Duane, I must respectfully disagree with your last comment. Frankly, I am tired of hearing the phrase "record profits". It is record profits because of volume, not because of pricing, margins or gouging. The weak American dollar exacerbates the price both at the point of purchase and as refined goods at the pump. If you look at the margins for the oil companies over the last decade, they have remained fairly static; ~10% gross margin the last analysis I saw. The media love to tout this phrase assuming that all consumers are mathematically challenged.

The politicians keep this in the forefront to keep the public focused on imaginary bogeymen and not on the more critical issues in life. Most people never take the time to do the basic arithmetic for the oil companies. 10% of $100 is $10; of $1,000 it is $100 and so forth. If the oil companies keep selling record volume, of course they will have record profits because it is a percentage of VOLUME. They are not raising prices and they are not the culprit for high gas prices. A weak dollar is killing us at the well and at the pump.

Finally, there has not been a refinery built in this country in 31 years. The greens are screwing you, me and everyone else by blocking permitting and construction. The MSM is complicit because they believe big oil has alternative energy that they are hiding. Talk to someone in the oil industry and they will tell you that refining capacity is the third leg of high prices: huge industrial growth in the third world + a weak dollar + lack of refinery capacity for American demand = very high prices.

The real bogeymen here are your politicians, the environmental movement and the weak American dollar.
 

tobby4

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Finally, there has not been a refinery built in this country in 31 years. The greens are screwing you, me and everyone else by blocking permitting and construction. The MSM is complicit because they believe big oil has alternative energy that they are hiding. Talk to someone in the oil industry and they will tell you that refining capacity is the third leg of high prices: huge industrial growth in the third world + a weak dollar + lack of refinery capacity for American demand = very high prices.

The real bogeymen here are your politicians, the environmental movement and the weak American dollar.

Thank you.... you just saved me from typing a bunch.

It has been a roller coaster few days, but things will even out and become a little more steady. The feds cutting the rates helps banks a ton, and they are talking another 125 basis points might possibly come off the rate....

Ride it out, and buy buy buy in a few days...
 

Angry Bill

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The real bogeymen here are your politicians, the environmental movement and the weak American dollar.

I totally agree with this, especially the politicians. I am for saving the Earth, trying to cut down on waste, etc. But to a point. The politicians jump on every band wagon they can to drum up votes.
 

Angry Bill

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I got into the market thanks to my uncle buing me Coca Cola stocks. Was probably 22. He bought me 50 shares and told me to only sell or buy more when he told me. I now have 600 shares and I only paid (out of my own pocket) for about 150 of those. Stock splits, sells and re buys at high and lows.

My Other stocks are doing well, as are my mutual funds. But rmember the old adage, only invest what you can afford. Its about taking chances, but being reasonable about those chances. If I did not have a retirement like I do, I would be more frugal with my investment money.

Shame on the politician that tries to take away retirements for public employees, as well as private companies. A California clown named Richmond is trying to get the law changed so that police, fire and other civil service jobs cannot not have a retirement system. LA County's Retirement system is completely funded and actually allows the county to borrow money via bonds.

Sorry to get off thread.
 
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It has been a roller coaster few days, but things will even out and become a little more steady. The feds cutting the rates helps banks a ton, and they are talking another 125 basis points might possibly come off the rate....
The problem with the rate cuts besides inflation is they are just preventing the inevitable. The banks made too many bad loans and people bought too much house than they could afford or there homes are no longer worth what they paid. Most will forclose eventually, but on the bright side home prices are cheaper for new buyers/investors. Remember that the real estate market runs in 20 year cycles and the last real estate bust was in the 80's. We might be able to pospone the pull back, but I doubt we will be able to prevent them.
 

cvm4

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We're basing our economy on the wrong thing, houses. It's the banks fault for not having stricter lending practices and also for packaging those mortgages into derivatives that barely anyone could understand. And it bit them in the butt. Let'm eat cake...
 

jfsjazz

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BOTLS,

Difficult as it may be during these types of market corrections, the following article gives us a good sense of what our actions should or should not be. I thought it to be a good read.

Market curses

The five dirty words you can't say in personal finance



By Chuck Jaffe, MarketWatch

Last update: 9:30 p.m. EST Jan. 22, 2008



BOSTON (MarketWatch) -- Anyone watching the stock market's opening implosion on Tuesday morning couldn't miss the commentators' regular use of curse words.



No, they were not swearing as the stock market fell by about 465 points off the open, but they were using the dirty words of personal finance, the ones that often curse the masses to financial self-destruction, the dirty words that seemingly have been on everyone's tongue over the last few weeks as stock market turmoil has ordinary folks ready to abandon long-term plans in favor of safe havens. Ironically, the bad words should give investors a clue that the commentary they are getting may be leading them astray. That's why it's imperative to face the current market upheaval with an eye and ear out for the following dirty words: now, next, must, top and best.






Here's a guide to the five bad words, the siren songs they tend to sing, and why investors should put up their guard whenever they hear them:



1. Now, as in 'Given what has been happening on the market, what is an investor to do now?'

Truth be told, most people aren't investing for "now," they're looking ahead anywhere from five to 55 years. Reacting to the present situation makes for good television and radio, but it's largely ignored by the financial advisers and by people trying to build lifetime portfolios.

Indeed, when analysts talked about Tuesday's decline representing a "panic sell-off," they were talking mostly about institutional investors, who typically have a mandate that they must try to make money -- or prevent losses -- in the current environment rather than over the long haul.

The pressure to "do something now" completely ignores the idea that there are many times when the best thing someone can do "now" is "nothing."

So when experts say they would avoid certain market sectors or would pursue specific investment ideas, they do it without regard to the asset-allocation plans of the audience. Even if investors might want to follow the advice to a point -- taking some profits off the table -- a knee-jerk sell-off could leave their portfolios less diversified, which actually increases overall risk and volatility at precisely the wrong time.

About the only time a "now" story is offering decent advice to a wide audience is when it talks about something that is tax-sensitive, like filing for a program or a tax deduction before some deadline passes.



2. Next, as in 'the next logical move is ...'

It is impossible to tell someone what to do next when you don't know what they have already done. As such, anyone suggesting what to do next without figuring out what has already happened could easily be sending you in the wrong direction.

Jumping into the next thing is a problem unless you know precisely where you will land. It's easy to say "buy consumer staples and dump financial services and real estate." Even if the advice is spot on (and studies of the financial press make it clear that doesn't happen all that often), there is no way to know if the message is appropriate for everyone who receives it.

As such, whenever some media pundit or feature article suggests what to do next, figure out first if they are talking to you, giving advice that truly applies to someone in your situation.



3. Top, as in 'Here are the top performers in certain time periods or market conditions'

Top performance is a measure of what has happened up to now but is not necessarily an indication of what will happen in the future.

Every 24 hours, the world turns over on someone who is sitting on top of it. Moreover, getting to the top of the heap typically requires extraordinary behaviors; for example, a stock mutual fund may be a top performer during a downturn because it has gone mostly to cash. That may protect against downside risk, but it means that the fund may be on the sidelines when conditions change, missing out on the start of a rebound and becoming a laggard during good times.

Don't take someone else's word on the top investment to buy now; make sure it is tops on your list, fitting in with the rest of your strategy.



4. Best, as in 'the best thing for investors to do now is ...'

What is best for one investor is not necessarily best for another. For example, whenever one investor buys a stock, another is selling it. Presumably both think they are taking the best action in the deal; the trade works if both sides believe it is appropriate.

When it comes to financial advice, no one has your best interests at heart quite the way you do; guard those interests by making sure a move truly is the best thing for you to do, not the best thing to grab audience attention.



5. Must, as in 'here's what investors must do to get through this'

Like "now," the word "must" creates a false sense of urgency and is designed to capture instant attention.

For most investors, however, success is built on having a plan filled with securities they believe in and not on changing directions every time the wind blows and brings out some new list of what someone must do now with today's top performers and best strategies for whatever market conditions come next.

When the five cursed words of personal finance are used in conjunction with advice, consider whether they are wrapped in information that is truly useful rather than just interesting. Daily or hourly market fluctuations tend to be interesting but not particularly useful for someone whose time horizon has thousands of market days left.



Chuck Jaffe is a senior MarketWatch columnist. His work appears in dozens of U.S. newspapers.
 
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I put 2/3rds of my holdings in money market funds back in September. I've taking a bit of a beating on what's still in play, but I'm only down a couple of points overall.
 
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We're basing our economy on the wrong thing, houses. It's the banks fault for not having stricter lending practices and also for packaging those mortgages into derivatives that barely anyone could understand. And it bit them in the butt. Let'm eat cake...
Actually it is not totally the banks fault. If you think about it, it is the rating agencies fault. They are the ones who mixed an mingled subprime issues with prime debt and then rated them highly. These were then resold on the open market not as high risk debt, but Class A exposures. This was in fact a fallacy. Moody's and S&P are the real culprits!
 

Fox

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Since this thread began, the news has gotten much worse, as expected. It now looks like Citi Corp will go down and as of today, the banks will start seizing Carlyle assets. There was a good article in the UK Telegraph today that blames a lot of the problems on the fed for keeping interested rates way too low for way too long. The article is here. It is an interview with Anna Schwartz, a very well known economist. The article is short and well worth the read. The WSJ says today that we are now in a recession. Some of the economists they interviewed believe this recession will be worse than 2001 or 1990-1991.

ETA: I also agree with Jason; re: blame. Althought the fed may have been able to prevent the crisis, that does not mean that others did not take advantage of the situation.
 

Electric Sheep

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Woah! Nice bump, I missed the second half of this last time around!

Fox, I agree with you 100%, and your analysis is spot-on. I was just tossing out a softball to take some of the personal attacks out of this thread, that's all.

And BTW, as a former anti-EcoNut/EcoTerrorist activist, I know exactly what you mean about the radical Environmentalists ruining energy in this country. As a lover of the environment, it just saddens me to no end that the most radical segment of the "big money" environmentalist "movement" have given people who care about the environment itself a BIG BLACK EYE.

I finally had to stop fighting them when they started sending me and my family death threats. I just turned everything over to the F.B.I., shut down my anti-EcoNut blog, quit contacting my Senators and Representatives on a weekly basis, and shut down all my activist activites period.

I am an avid lover of the environment, nature, and the outdoors...but those radical wackkos have ruined EVERYTHING for EVERYONE with their insane political agendas.

<sorry, off the soapbox now>
 
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