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Temperature vs. RH

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Zmilin, that's a very interesting video. I have always wondered why everyone talks about RH rather than % moisture content. For those who are wondering, the moisture content is expressed as the percentage of weight. Therefore, if a cigar is 13% moisture content then 13% of its weight is water.
The reason I have always wondered about this is that I own a small company that make moisture meters for wood so I know a bit about how RH affects moisture content and how temperature affects RH. Insuring wood is at the appropriate moisture content for whatever project you are doing is important.

Now I'm wondering about Boveda, kitty litter and other RH controlling substances. How are they affected by temperature swings? My thought is that they cannot compensate for temperature so if the temperature changes, the actual moisture content in your cigars will change even though the Boveda, or whatever, is maintaining the RH.
That being said, I believe the saving grace is that cigars don't change MC very fast so as long as the temperature changes don't last more than a couple of weeks then we are OK, but this is just conjecture.
 
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I believe you are right. Its all about actual humidity, regardless of what relative humidity we read.
here's an interesting chart

from that article http://vigilantinc.com/cigar-humidors/humidity-and-temperature.php

Now, if my wino is at 66F and my RH at 70, will I be drying my cigars? Maybe I'll add DW and 85% bovedas
I have looked for a chart like this for quite a while but was unable to find one. I find this one a bit hard to believe. It says that with only a 2 degree change in temperature we should read a full 5% change on our hygrometer. Seems too high from what I know about temperature vs. RH but I'm always open to being corrected.
 

herfdog

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I have looked for a chart like this for quite a while but was unable to find one. I find this one a bit hard to believe. It says that with only a 2 degree change in temperature we should read a full 5% change on our hygrometer. Seems too high from what I know about temperature vs. RH but I'm always open to being corrected.
It was my own impression too... but I found same information from other sources as well. So, yeah.



Now, according to data from researches, it seems to be valid. There's this humidity calculator there http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/relhum.html#c4 that seems to point to the same thing... (fill 70 F then 70%. now change 70F for 65 and see the % recalculate to 82.588.....%)

BUT... the main thing to keep in mind. Is 70/70 good to begin with?
And, would you keep your cigars in your fridge, thinking it'll be valid humidity-wise?

Now, I understand most people like 65%, and I prefer closer to 70%. Well, its colder here ;) here's why!!
 
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OK, I'm convinced. It's very interesting. I so often read read about people debating the difference between 65% and say 68%. I often wonder if they are paying close attention to the temperature because it has a huge affect on what the actual MC of their cigars is. Most people don't have a stable temperature environment to store their cigars in. Even if they do, are they compensating for their temperature if it is not exactly 70 deg. ?

I used to be heavily into making beer. One of the great beer gurus had a saying, "Relax, have a homebrew." This was his way of saying that we get all worked up about details because we love the subject, whether it is homebrew or cigars. It's fun to learn all you can but in the end, if you enjoy the result ..... Relax, have a cigar."
 

Mr. McSquirelly

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Here's an explanation from a Ph.D. at UCLA from 2009:

5.0 Humidification

Why create a humid environment with a constant relative humidity of 70%?


Cigars are naturally hygroscopic products. In common with many organic substances, they dry out in the absence of humidity in the air, or absorb moisture from the ambient air. They establish an equilibrium with the atmospheric humidity which surrounds them.

At 68% a cigar will slowly dry out and loose essential oils. At 74% and higher, organic molecules will break down out-of-order, producing unwanted tastes. More importantly, at 80% or higher, you're leaving your stogies wide open to grow mold. Neither cigars or humidors are a particularly sterile environment. Note that these are relative humidities - cigars should be stored at 70 - 73% RH regardless of temperature.

The "Variable" Humidity Myth...


Many self-proclaimed "authorities" have been making a serious mistake of confusing moisture content with relative humidity lately. At least one well-known Cigar distributor has added strength to this legend by distributing a table recommending different relative humidities at different temperatures. Don't fall for this "urban legend"! Cigars should be kept at 70% RH REGARDLESS of temperature or you WILL ruin them...

The modern myth of varying humidity with temperature is based on an entirely false premise. Cigars don't care about absolute moisture content. They need just enough moisture to keep the tobacco pliable, but not so much to swell it. This occurs at 70-73% REGARDLESS of temperature.

Tobacco should be kept at a relative humidity which just keeps the leaves pliable without swelling them. Since that pliability is based on the interaction of the cellular membranes with the air surrounding them, relative humidity--not absolute moisture content--is what's important. This isn't chemistry, it's mechanics - on a cellular level. Ideally, the correct point is 70-73% regardless of temperature. At 70% relative humidity (a measure which by definition is independent of temperature) cigar leaves become pliable without swelling. At 75% or higher, the cells begin to swell; at 68% or lower, they can become brittle. These points are regardless of the ambient temperature or the absolute moisture content.

Does it make any sense to a rational person to keep their cigars at close to 100% humidity at 60 degrees? Anyone living in cold climates can attest to the fact that at 60 deg, their cigars are perfect at 70%, and (as they would at any temperature) their cigars are prone to mold and swelling at humidities above 80%. Those living in the tropics will tell you the same thing - their cigars MUST be kept at 70% humidity at storage temperatures of 80 degrees. According to "the table", those cigars should be at 50% humidity? I'll tell you what: If the humidity drops below 68%, your cigars will become dry and crack - I couldn't even imagine how badly dried out they'd be at 50%!

Try it yourself. The "logic" of varying RH with temp falls apart in the real world. Moisture content is NOT why we keep cigars at 70% humidity...

Here's a more scientific explanation debunking the myth of varying humidity from David E. Patton, Ph.D. at the Department of Physiology, UCLA School of Medicine...

"There has been extensive discussion on A.S.C. concerning the effects of temperature on humidity and its application to proper cigar storage. Much of the confusion concerning these concepts comes from not understanding what is happening at the molecular level. My goal is to explain some of the relevant concepts and then to put the concepts together in such a way as to give an intuitive understanding of how they relate to cigar storage.

Cigars are made from tobacco leaves. Tobacco leaves (like most plant material) consist primarily of carbohydrates and proteins. Protein and carbohydrate molecules contain many binding sites for water molecules. A certain proportion of the water binding sites need to be occupied by water molecules in order for the tobacco leaves to be adequately pliable, to burn properly and to age properly. So when we think about humidity as it relates to cigar storage, the most relevant factor to consider is: Are the correct proportion of water binding sites occupied? Water molecules bind to other molecules via hydrogen bonds. Van der Waals interactions also participate. This applies to water bound to protein and carbohydrate molecules (e.g. tobacco leaves) or to other water molecules (e.g. liquid water). For the purposes of this discussion, water bound to tobacco leaves will be treated like liquid water.

Temperature is the main factor determining whether a water molecule will be more likely to be in either the gas or liquid (or bound) phases. This is because at higher temperatures, water molecules (like any other molecule) will have more kinetic energy. The more kinetic energy a molecule has, the higher its probability of being in the gas phase. This is because it will have sufficient kinetic energy to break out of the hydrogen bonds and Van der Waals interactions that would otherwise keep it bound. At lower temperatures molecules have less kinetic energy so when they collide with a carbohydrate molecule, for example, its kinetic energy is insufficient to break away from it. The important point here is that at higher temperatures, a water molecule is more likely to be in the gas phase and less likely to be bound. At lower temperatures a water molecule is more likely to be bound and less likely to be in the gas phase.

Another point that needs to be explained here is the concept of relative humidity. Simply stated, relative humidity is the ratio of the concentration of water in the gas phase divided by the maximal concentration of water the air can hold (the saturating concentration) at a given temperature. Air holds more water at higher temperatures. Therefore, if you hold the relative humidity constant and increase the temperature, the concentration of water molecules in the gas phase will increase. If you think about this superficially you may think that because the concentration of water molecules increases in the gas phase as you increase the temperature (holding relative humidity constant)that your cigars will become over-humidified. This is WRONG. Remember, as you increase the temperature, the water molecules are less likely to be bound to the tobacco and more likely to be in the gas phase. Thus, to keep the same proportion of water binding sites in the tobacco occupied by water molecules, the concentration of water molecules in the gas phase must be increased when temperature is increased."


Again, cigars should be stored at 70 - 73% relative humidity, regardless of temperature. Period.
 
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Jfire

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I want to say so much in this thread that my blood has started to tingle.... I understand we come here to discuss all of this cigar related material..........
Here's the deal. STORE YOU CIGARS BETWEEN 60%rh and 70%rh and you cigars will forever thank you. After you've been around long enough you can "dial" in between those two previous numbers.
My 3 vino temps and 2 150 ct desktops vary from 65 degrees and 69degs over 12 months. I have never run around in a panic saying "OMG MY HUMIDITY SPIKED 12% PERCENT, ALL BECAUSE OF A 4 deg change!!!!!!
And since 2008 my cigars has been kept at 65%rh and smoke like a Bentley....... (That was made to sound slightly snobby since we throw around PHDs now)
Associates degree in fire science.
Paramedic degree from Joliet junior college
Real world degree in cigar collecting
Phd in cigar smoking and reviewing.........
 
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mdwest

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^^^^ this ^^^^^

on a personal level.. I could care less about the science (I understand that it might be intriguing to others.. if science is your thing.. cool... enjoy!)... all I care about it I enjoy the cigar..

I have found that if I keep my cabinet 70 degrees or cooler.. I dont have a beetle problem (never had one.. hope I never do..)... and if I keep my RH between 63-67 they generally burn well and taste like I like them...

Anything beyond that.. I dont really concern myself with...

At the end of the day.. if I can set some leaves on fire and enjoy the experience.. thats good enough for me... whether or not water molecules are binding with protein molecules.. or whether RH rises or falls with increased temps.. or when I turn on the AC in the house.. etc.. is of no concern...

My routine is simple... I walk into the office in the morning.. pass by the cabinet on the way to the desk... take a quick look at the hygro's to confirm temp and RH is in the range I like.. if they are.. I go sit on my fat butt at my desk and work and not think about it again until tomorrow.. if not.. add a little DW to the cabinet.. or go turn the AC up or down a notch... then go sit on my fat butt at my desk and work.. and not think about it again until tomorrow..

I refuse to put any more time/energy/thought into it than that... (science just isnt that intriguing to me...)
 

herfdog

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Thanks to all the inputs.
The molecular science seem to be saying the same as people who experience temp swing. Thanks @jolietilfire for your input, the range at which your cigar is kept is wide enough for comparisons.

My newly build wino seem to be stable between 64-66 deg F and I have a RH at about 70%. The numbers on that previous chart made me a bit scared and I was to compare cigars over the next few weeks with some concern over the possible need for higher temp.
That said, I've kept my cigars around 69% on both colder winter days and warmer summer days with similar results, so I guess it makes sense that the tobacco leaves are needing RH not absolute humidity.
All in all, as long as it smokes good, I see zero problem.
 

Mr. McSquirelly

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I would just like to say that the views expressed in my post are NOT my own. I found that after running a google search 'Science of cigar humidification.' I thought it was just an interesting explanation of the chemistry behind the humidification of cigars. I believe that in a small environment like a 300-count, or lower, humidor, that science does not apply. In a large retail walk-in, I think that scientific explanation becomes a little more relevant, only because there are thousand of cigars that require large amounts of humidity to stay fresh. His science applies to the atmosphere. When you shrink the space to 1000 cubic inches (150-count humidor), I think the difference between 60%-70% is minimal at best. But then again, I am no scientist. In all my research on this subject over the years, I've never heard someone say cigars should be stored at 73% rH. However, I've heard Pete Johnson say he likes to store his cigars at 70% rH, yet I've also heard Nick Perdomo say he likes his at 63-65%. These guys are both successful cigar makers, so their opinions have some validity. It's really just personal preference at the end of the day.
 
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I am a bit of a science geek. My problem was understanding the relationship of temperature to RH. I could not figure out how the changes didn't affect cigars. Now I do. In a nutshell, the cigars absorb or give off moisture based on the RH and not the absolute moisture content of the air. The moisture transfer of the cigars is affected by temperature the same way the ability of air to hold moisture is affected by temperature. Therefore it is relative (RH). It makes sense to me now. I've been enjoying cigars long enough to know that temperature did not seem to have much affect but I couldn't understand why. Now I do. Thanks for all the input from everyone.

Bruce.
 
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