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The confusion between body and strength

KPP

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Phew....I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders...

Thank you for clearing all this madness up.


And don't get ahead of yourself Nate.....we can only solve one cigar misconception at a time bro :eyepoke:
 

Cigary43

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I very much agree with post #1. That is accurate.

The next term we have to tackle is "complexity," which many in the cigar world think means the cigar changes flavors as you smoke it ... that is NOT complexity. Complexity is a culinary and wine term, meaning how many different flavors (and their depth) are present (and no, it's not semantics--terms mean certian things and to use them improperly or "however you want" not only causes confusion but makes cigar lovers look like idiots to everyone else).
I think you'll have a hard time selling this to a lot of cigar aficionados as well as wine enthusiasts. The word complex can be used to describe quite a few things and esp. in taste. While the word complexity is used in the culinary arts and wine it is used quite a bit in the description of cigars. How else is one to describe different tastes in a cigar as it changes during the length of the cigar? I have read quite a few definitions on this and this particular explanation is as good as it gets IMO.... Complex cigars will show you a variety of tobacco flavors bringing spice, depth, richness, smoothness, earth, leather, sweetness and more. In order for one to be able to define these one must be able to distinguish them by taste.

I get what you are saying about the word complex not meaning flavors...but rather how that flavor is distinguished from the receptors in the mouth.


The definition for body and strength from what the OP has stated is a very astute and simple explanation on terms that have been used interchangeably but aren't correct. Thanks to the OP for setting this straight.
 
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Yeah, I always thought body meant strength and flavor meant flavor. So you're saying body is what some people call "mouth-feel".

I very much agree with post #1. That is accurate.

The next term we have to tackle is "complexity," which many in the cigar world think means the cigar changes flavors as you smoke it ... that is NOT complexity. Complexity is a culinary and wine term, meaning how many different flavors (and their depth) are present (and no, it's not semantics--terms mean certian things and to use them improperly or "however you want" not only causes confusion but makes cigar lovers look like idiots to everyone else).
I usually refer to a stick that changes flavor as you smoke it as being dynamic, but many times a complex smoke is dynamic.
 
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This thread has been illuminating to me. I usually describe the power of a cigar as body, but I think that this thread has explained the difference between power (strength) and body for me pretty clearly. A few questions pop up from examples given. Here's one:

A good example of a cigar that's about a medium-full body but quite mild in strength is the Man o' War Virtue. That thing exudes huge clouds of thick, dense, flavourful smoke with a creamy texture and sweetness, but you could smoke it first thing in the morning and not bat an eye.
I'm a medium to full strength with medium to full flavor smoker. I'm pretty accustomed to cigars that are big on strength, ala LFD Double Ligero, AB Tempus, Oliva Serie V. These cigars no longer make my head swim, but I was shocked when I smoked the MoW Virtue. I expected a mild strength cigar, but by the end, my head was swimming.

Now, palates differ. That goes without saying, but is it possible for people to experience strength differently, even among those who are accustomed to cigars that are BIG on strength?

Also, my two cents on compexlity:

I have to agree with a previous statement about complexity, that complexity is the variety of flavors being experienced, not how the cigar changes. I usually use the word eventful to describe a cigar that changes a lot in flavor as the cigar burns. An eventful cigar will exhibit certain flavors at different moments as the cigar burns down. A complex cigar will exhibit an array of flavors at any given moment. These can often accompany each other, but not always.

When discussing complexity and eventfulness of a cigar, I usually like to specify depth as well. My two cents on dept:

I usually refer to the depth of a blend as the layers of flavor present within the profile. Like complex music, you may experience a lot of one note at the fore-front while other notes hang in the background. Ex: I am currently smoking an El Mejor Emerald. In the forefront, I taste cedar with a buttery richness. Supporting, but not in the background, is a nutty flavor akin to cashew. Subtle notes of spice linger enticingly in the background, but only make themselves truly known through the nose. The levels of flavor described here determine the depth of this cigars flavor. Top: cedar and butter; Middle: nutty; Background: spice.

This can also be described visually. Imagine you are on a shooting range and there are three targets. the first target is 10 feet away and can be seen clearly without effort, taking up a good portion of your vision. The second target is 75 feet away and is more difficult to hone in on, taking up much less of your field of vision. The third target is 150 feet away and, although you can see it, it is much more difficult to see detail due to the lack of space in your field of vision. You can see all three at once, but the degree to which you experience each is vastly different.

And there's my two cents. Thanks for reading this lengthy post!
 
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I am still appalled at the responses on this thread. I seriously think you guys are shooting yourselves in the foot. Nobody, i mean nobody, will take you seriously if you describe the Man o' war virtue or any other mild stick as anything close to full bodied, no matter what the "mouthfeel" properties of the smoke are.

Body = strength seriously get with the program. Go to your B&M, ask the owner, ask any cigar maker, or anyone that's been smoking cigars for more than 10 years.

The La Riquezas produce some of the thickest, most luxurious and palate coating smoke in the business. But if I described it as full-bodied I would get laughed at.
 

KPP

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I am still appalled at the responses on this thread. I seriously think you guys are shooting yourselves in the foot. Nobody, i mean nobody, will take you seriously if you describe the Man o' war virtue or any other mild stick as anything close to full bodied, no matter what the "mouthfeel" properties of the smoke are.

Body = strength seriously get with the program. Go to your B&M, ask the owner, ask any cigar maker, or anyone that's been smoking cigars for more than 10 years.

The La Riquezas produce some of the thickest, most luxurious and palate coating smoke in the business. But if I described it as full-bodied I would get laughed at.
Count me in this camp as well....if there were to be two separate camps that is.

The problem with this thread, is not the confusion between body and strength....but rather that "body" is being confused with "flavor". They are not one in the same IMO.

I just smoke the fuggerz anyway, and would prefer not to think too hard (that's why I smoke)....but that's been my take on this thread since I've been following along anyway.
 

sonarman

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Very true, what can make a mild stick so good is the amount of flavor it has in it. Glad this was finally brought up.
 

Clint

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This is one of those "I'm right, so everyone else is wrong!" threads!

Entertaining, to say the least :)

....Please, continue
 
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This is one of those "I'm right, so everyone else is wrong!" threads!

Entertaining, to say the least :)

....Please, continue
Honestly... I don't usually get caught up in these things so I'm amused at myself a little bit. :skew::skew::skew:But seriously, body is not in any way correlated to flavor or the thickness of the smoke. From Tatuaje's website describing the La Riqueza:

"Blended in the style of the Full Flavored Medium Bodied Cuban Cigars."

What is Pete talking about here? The smoke has full flavor, meaning your taste buds and olfactory senses will detect very wonderful things and lots of them, and medium bodied, meaning that it's medium strength in terms of nicotine. Click on any single vitola and the strength meter says 3/5.

Very simple. I can understand how some might want to use the term "body" in a similar way as when you describe wine or food but the term is just different for cigars. I apologize to the op and all who agree but we can't just go changing cigar terminology on a whim. You wouldn't walk up to a ref at a basketball game and say "traveling" means something else just because it was more convenient or sounded better to you.
 
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Im new to this myself.

When I get a mouthful of smoke and it's just very pungent, thick and spicy I consider that full bodied.

I havent smoked many mild sticks. IME they can make a nice cloud of smoke but it's impact on the mouth is less. I can expel the smoke more slowly.

Nicotine strength varies base on a lot of factors ie the size of the smoke, time of day, meals, etc.
 
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This is one of those "I'm right, so everyone else is wrong!" threads!

Entertaining, to say the least :)

....Please, continue
Haha, I was thinking the same thing. It seems that, at the bottom of it, the real problem is that there is no standard by which all cigar smokers define their terms. We need cigar aficionado or some bigwig to come out and say- "here is the official cigar dictionary." Although, knowing cigar smokers and being one myself- we'd probably all say, "no I think you're wrong" to that too! Alas, we're doomed to the philosophical disputes:
-To use cello or not to use cello, that is the question
-I taste, therefore this cigar is full-bod...flav...strength
At least we all here seem to agree on one thing: the unexamined cigar is not worth smoking :argue: :cbig:
 
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aroma

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If you read enough manufacturers' cigar descriptions, resellers' hype, forum posts, etc., you can't escape the fact that there is no consensus w.r.t. the precise meanings of these terms. Any given person can define what he means by "strength", "body", "complexity", etc., but it doesn't change the fact that, no matter how you prefer to use one of these words, many others will mean something else when they use it and will understand something else when they hear it.

Fortunately, there are lots of easy ways to say what you mean unambiguously. Use terms like "intense favor," "nicotine strength," "nic kick," "peppery retrohale," "layers of flavor," "flavor changes over time," etc.
 
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This is a great thread. I learned some good stuff, no doubt. Especially the "mouth feel" aspect. I never really considered that in my smoking pleasure. I do now :) Thanks gents.
 
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Had this conversation (mild or full) while smoking my weekly, yesterday.

My contention is that if someone prefers mild aromas and soft flavorings while enjoying a cigar, they should merely smoke it in that manner. If one prefers a stronger aroma or pungent sting of a "peppery" assault to the olfactory sensors, one need only smoke it that manner - perhaps puffing more frequently to make the smoke hotter; or when smelling the aroma of the burn, hold it under the nose, allowing more direct smoke.

If you were to give me a fine cigar that you felt was "full-bodied," I would show you how to smoke it in order to enjoy the mildest of aromas amid subtle flavorings. Conversely, were you to offer me a "mild" cigar. I would introduce you to techniques by which this cigar could burn with the intensity of a chimney.

The smoker must control the cigar lest he become the smoked.
 
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