Interesting, was there a difference with the cello on compared to it off?
Doesn't sound very casual to me! lol
To freeze or not to freeze?
- Thread starter txaggie9307
- Start date
Doesn't sound very casual to me! lol
Interesting I have always been very curious about this. I do not freeze but live in a climate where it is not generally an issue 10 months out of the year. That said I have found holes on occasion but never had an outbreak (luck maybe).
What makes me curious is I refuse to freeze items such as Steak (for example) as I firmly believe there is a difference in flavor. Tobacco is an organic product and I have always wondered if the freezing process would effect it.
But what do I know.
What makes me curious is I refuse to freeze items such as Steak (for example) as I firmly believe there is a difference in flavor. Tobacco is an organic product and I have always wondered if the freezing process would effect it.
But what do I know.
Ill try to find the article I read. someone with a very large personal stock (walk in humi at home) had an issue with beetles. They tested the freezing method and found that it wasnt really effective. Even worse if there was larva they just burrow deeper in to the center where its less cold.
The best way they found was to actually microwave boxes of cigars. It needed to be at least a box quantity otherwise sticks would dry to much and catch fire. I'll look it up and post a link.
article was on ci's 101 section. http://www.cigarsinternational.com/html/cig101_14ymt.asp
The best way they found was to actually microwave boxes of cigars. It needed to be at least a box quantity otherwise sticks would dry to much and catch fire. I'll look it up and post a link.
article was on ci's 101 section. http://www.cigarsinternational.com/html/cig101_14ymt.asp
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I did the same type thing keeping two desktops for about a year one frozen one not, Cubans and nons mixed. I could taste no difference. Plus I was freezing everything but the ones for the non frozen humidor. They tasted the same from the $2 sticks to the $50 BBMF's All tasted great.
That's because 99.99% of people freezing are just wasting their time. It must either be frozen at an EXTREME level of cold, one that would require a commercial level freezer to reach, and even those often aren't designed for that. Or, they must be left within the freezer for an extended amount of time, approaching a month.
If you aren't doing one or the other of these things, then you're essentially wasting your time. Putting your cigars at 20-30 degrees below freezing for 1-7 days does next to nothing, other than put your cigars in more immediate danger than the beetle larva that may or may not be nestled within. Much like the thread from last month, where many of us pronounced our dissatisfaction with the lack of hard science concerning cigars, this is yet another facet where which ignorance reigns supreme. A statement of pronounced ignorance isn't a put down, it's a statement of fact that I said in the previously mentioned thread. There is a total lack of hard science in cigars, and the question as to whether we should "freeze or not to freeze" further demonstrates that. I listed above what would be required to be 99% sure that all larva have been killed, as you can never be 100% sure. BUT, the lack of science I speak of pertains to the damage this would do to the cigars themselves.
We go out of our way to preserve the oils within our sticks, making sure humidity is precisely measured, and watched on a daily basis. Yet, something as damaging as extreme cold is thrown into the mix and thought to have no ill effects? I'm sorry, that breaks laws of thermodynamics. Of course it has ill effects, laws of nature state there MUST be ill effects, state that there MUST be some level of damage done to the sticks. What pertains to us though, is will these ill effects affect the taste of our treasures? This is where the lack of hard information comes into play. We have articles that say yes, it does affect the taste, others say no. Hell, within this very thread we have two members that disagree. Once again, we come across something that nobody knows for sure. The sticks tasting the same after removed from the freezer means little to nothing. Will they taste the same in a year? 2 years? How about 10 years from now? Were essential oils to the aging process lost, but were undetectable while the sticks were still in their infancy? The questions go on and on and on....
I, personally, won't be putting my cigars in the freezer, for I know I'm in no way helping them, but only putting them at high risk.
Gravity,That's because 99.99% of people freezing are just wasting their time. It must either be frozen at an EXTREME level of cold, one that would require a commercial level freezer to reach, and even those often aren't designed for that. Or, they must be left within the freezer for an extended amount of time, approaching a month.
I, personally, won't be putting my cigars in the freezer, for I know I'm in no way helping them, but only putting them at high risk.
I missed the article about lack of science in our hobby. Pls post link or PM to me. I'd be very interested. Sometimes it frustrates the hell out of me, but most of the time, I think I value the 'science deficit' because maybe it enhances the art of it - or highlights the organic-ness.
At any rate, I don't think I've ever heard your viewpoint on ineffectiveness of largely accepted home freezing methods. Please elaborate or point us to the documented 'science' of beetle larvae eradication. I'd greatly appreciate it. Not trying to be combative - just curious about the statements as fact that I hadn't heard/read before. Thanks.
Understand your post and share the feeling, but:That's because 99.99% of people freezing are just wasting their time. It must either be frozen at an EXTREME level of cold, one that would require a commercial level freezer to reach, and even those often aren't designed for that. Or, they must be left within the freezer for an extended amount of time, approaching a month.
If you aren't doing one or the other of these things, then you're essentially wasting your time. Putting your cigars at 20-30 degrees below freezing for 1-7 days does next to nothing, other than put your cigars in more immediate danger than the beetle larva that may or may not be nestled within. Much like the thread from last month, where many of us pronounced our dissatisfaction with the lack of hard science concerning cigars, this is yet another facet where which ignorance reigns supreme. A statement of pronounced ignorance isn't a put down, it's a statement of fact that I said in the previously mentioned thread. There is a total lack of hard science in cigars, and the question as to whether we should "freeze or not to freeze" further demonstrates that. I listed above what would be required to be 99% sure that all larva have been killed, as you can never be 100% sure. BUT, the lack of science I speak of pertains to the damage this would do to the cigars themselves.
We go out of our way to preserve the oils within our sticks, making sure humidity is precisely measured, and watched on a daily basis. Yet, something as damaging as extreme cold is thrown into the mix and thought to have no ill effects? I'm sorry, that breaks laws of thermodynamics. Of course it has ill effects, laws of nature state there MUST be ill effects, state that there MUST be some level of damage done to the sticks. What pertains to us though, is will these ill effects affect the taste of our treasures? This is where the lack of hard information comes into play. We have articles that say yes, it does affect the taste, others say no. Hell, within this very thread we have two members that disagree. Once again, we come across something that nobody knows for sure. The sticks tasting the same after removed from the freezer means little to nothing. Will they taste the same in a year? 2 years? How about 10 years from now? Were essential oils to the aging process lost, but were undetectable while the sticks were still in their infancy? The questions go on and on and on....
I, personally, won't be putting my cigars in the freezer, for I know I'm in no way helping them, but only putting them at high risk.
- I need to see the "facts" that putting your cigars in a freezer for 3 days won't work...you gave scientific data without backup, unless i'm mistaken and you have posted in another thread...if that's the case, thanks and sorry for the accusation. Living in the DR, my temps are always high and beetles appear rapidly in cigars. I have to freeze them for 3 days, and so far it has worked (yep, i did a small study in my house, I even opened some bundles to see).
- And the scientific studies that show that your cigars will be really affected buy freezing them. Don't get me wrong, I do believe the cigars are affected by freezing them...i've done it, but the difference between the frozen and the non-frozen after a month or more resting in the humidor, I have yet to notice.
Try reading this - Link 1 Link 2
EDIT: I'm with dave when he says:
ironpeddler
Ye' Old Newbie
Off the Web from a respected retailer in GB....
How to check your cigars for weevil infestation
If you think you have a problem, first check the paper hinge of the box your cigars come in for a deposit of fine brown dust rather than the usual flecks of tobacco youd normally find in an uninfected box.
Then take out a cigar and place it on a sheet of plain white paper. Tap the foot of the cigar which may then emit a shower of dust from inside the cigar and enable you to see where the tobacco weevil penetrated.
Destroy that dust by burning it in an ashtray.
If you see signs of holes created by weevil infestation, remove all the cigars from the box and isolate them in a sealable clear plastic bag.
Dont spray those cigars with insecticide for that will only compound the problem and make them impossible to smoke.
Better to place the entire bag carefully in your deep freeze, which should kill the weevil in about 4-5 days. (I guess the operative word here is "should")
You can then transfer that unopened bag of cigars to the main part of your fridge. Once they have thawed out, bring them back to room temperature.
If you want to be extra-careful, place them in a humidor away from any other cigars.
Those previously frozen cigars may not taste as good as they would have before the tobacco weevil got at them, but at least you wont have to throw them away.
However, if you are really concerned about the infestation and dont want to take any chances, then you should destroy the infected box.
By the way, as a rule you should never store cigars in a freezer or non-freezer section of a fridge.
Fine cigars need to be stored in carefully controlled low temperatures. 16 degrees C to 18 degrees C (60 - 65F) is the best range in which to store cigars. If the temperature rises above 21 degrees C, weevils, a.k.a. lasioderma serricone, thrive.
=============================================================================================================
For many years I was always under the impression that the issue with freezing them was it's infiltration (cold air) into the middle of the box and then maintaining that subfreezing internal temp for 36 to 48 hours. I've been doing that for many years and never had a beetle issue...and I can't say I ever tasted a difference in the cigars from doing that.
There was an article posted on one of the other forums that came from Habanos in regard to freezing cigars. The issue I had with the article's procedure was where the hell would the Cuban Government have warehouse size freezers to accomplish this? No one I know that travels there has ever seen or heard of them from most first hand accounts. They just about maintain a constant current of electricity within the country...and they supposedly freeze all their cigars? Then you figure they box them up in caseloads and put them on pallets....how long do you think it would take for the temp to reach sub-freezing in the middle of that pallet of cigars?...and then maintain that temp for the time needed to kill the larva?
Because of my lack of faith in Habanos to properly address this issue, I continue to freeze cigars that originate from there...better safe than sorry.
How to check your cigars for weevil infestation
If you think you have a problem, first check the paper hinge of the box your cigars come in for a deposit of fine brown dust rather than the usual flecks of tobacco youd normally find in an uninfected box.
Then take out a cigar and place it on a sheet of plain white paper. Tap the foot of the cigar which may then emit a shower of dust from inside the cigar and enable you to see where the tobacco weevil penetrated.
Destroy that dust by burning it in an ashtray.
If you see signs of holes created by weevil infestation, remove all the cigars from the box and isolate them in a sealable clear plastic bag.
Dont spray those cigars with insecticide for that will only compound the problem and make them impossible to smoke.
Better to place the entire bag carefully in your deep freeze, which should kill the weevil in about 4-5 days. (I guess the operative word here is "should")
You can then transfer that unopened bag of cigars to the main part of your fridge. Once they have thawed out, bring them back to room temperature.
If you want to be extra-careful, place them in a humidor away from any other cigars.
Those previously frozen cigars may not taste as good as they would have before the tobacco weevil got at them, but at least you wont have to throw them away.
However, if you are really concerned about the infestation and dont want to take any chances, then you should destroy the infected box.
By the way, as a rule you should never store cigars in a freezer or non-freezer section of a fridge.
Fine cigars need to be stored in carefully controlled low temperatures. 16 degrees C to 18 degrees C (60 - 65F) is the best range in which to store cigars. If the temperature rises above 21 degrees C, weevils, a.k.a. lasioderma serricone, thrive.
=============================================================================================================
For many years I was always under the impression that the issue with freezing them was it's infiltration (cold air) into the middle of the box and then maintaining that subfreezing internal temp for 36 to 48 hours. I've been doing that for many years and never had a beetle issue...and I can't say I ever tasted a difference in the cigars from doing that.
There was an article posted on one of the other forums that came from Habanos in regard to freezing cigars. The issue I had with the article's procedure was where the hell would the Cuban Government have warehouse size freezers to accomplish this? No one I know that travels there has ever seen or heard of them from most first hand accounts. They just about maintain a constant current of electricity within the country...and they supposedly freeze all their cigars? Then you figure they box them up in caseloads and put them on pallets....how long do you think it would take for the temp to reach sub-freezing in the middle of that pallet of cigars?...and then maintain that temp for the time needed to kill the larva?
Because of my lack of faith in Habanos to properly address this issue, I continue to freeze cigars that originate from there...better safe than sorry.
I am with Gary on this one. That is great information. Thanks.
The big thing is that all these freezing techniques talk of deep freeze. -30 to -50°f. I know my freezer doesn't get that cold.
Seems this is a topic like religion or politics. Everyone has a belief but no real sound proof behind any of it. If it works for you do it, if not, don't.
Seems this is a topic like religion or politics. Everyone has a belief but no real sound proof behind any of it. If it works for you do it, if not, don't.
I hate rabbit holes.......but, let me scoot down another one anyway....'deep freeze' to me always just meant a stand-alone freezer; home models afaik typically sit around 0 degrees F. I was totally unaware that use of term 'deep freeze' necessarily implies less than 30 below.
It seems like whenever you read about a distributor or producer explain there freeze procedure its always using a industrial freezer at very low temps. I believe at -10°f even enzymes stop so pretty much everything is done at that point.
CigarSaint
Who Dat!
Keep you sticks under 75 degrees and your're fine. Last summer I had a beetle outbreak and froze all my sticks... I buy from trusted sources always.
These aren't my articles, I was referring to my comments in another thread concerning the lack of science within cigars. Within that thread, it pertained to the aging and storage of cigars and the differences pertaining to their size. (ie. Do large RG cigars age better than small rg.)
Here are two articles that give you an idea how hard it is to kill the insects in their larvae stage. Either of which do not take into account the insulation that the cigar itself would create for the larvae, adding more required time. Not to mention, the problems which arise from NOT fulling killing off the larvae the first time. If you don't leave them within a deep freeze for long enough to kill them, you're actually strengthening their acclimation to extreme cold.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0925521491900213
http://bru.gmprc.ksu.edu/proj/iwcspp/pdf2/9/6238.pdf
Also, according to the above information, putting the cigars in a refrigerator for a period of time before the freezer actually multiplies the insects ability to survive the impending cold by several times, the freezing MUST be sudden. I would even surmise to say that cigars ordered during the winter, going through cold and warm spikes during delivery, actually help the insects ability to survive the cold as well. Meaning, perhaps you have larvae that have built up a resistance to cold within your cigars, and to actually kill them would require even longer than some of the above times given. (Notice some insects that had been acclimated were taking over a month to reach 100% mortality rate.)
Now, if we could reach temperatures of -30F to -40F, this would all be a moot point, because a few days at those temps would most certainly kill the insect.
*edit*
I just wanted to make it clear, I would prefer it if you guys DID prove me wrong on this one. If it actually only took a day to three at residential level freezing to kill these bugs, that would be awesome. But, every site I read that on, was backed up by words like "should", "could" and "maybe". The CA article being the worst of them all.
Now, if we could reach temperatures of -30F to -40F, this would all be a moot point, because a few days at those temps would most certainly kill the insect.
*edit*
I just wanted to make it clear, I would prefer it if you guys DID prove me wrong on this one. If it actually only took a day to three at residential level freezing to kill these bugs, that would be awesome. But, every site I read that on, was backed up by words like "should", "could" and "maybe". The CA article being the worst of them all.
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For what it is worth. I do work with scientists. Cryo units (-80 C) stop all cellular activity. -20 C are used when such extremes are not needed.
Not sure how this translates to Beatles but I suspect extreme cold may be needed - otherwise we wouldn't have insects here in the NE
Then again the insects in question do come from a warmer climate
and yes I do contradict myself often
Not sure how this translates to Beatles but I suspect extreme cold may be needed - otherwise we wouldn't have insects here in the NE
Then again the insects in question do come from a warmer climate
and yes I do contradict myself often
Lol, we all do.
I read several articles concerning extreme cold in nature. One was pertaining to beetle problems in Montana, and the inability of the prolonged cold to kill the larvae.
Those are pine beetles and they are destroying the lodge pole pines here in Colorado and throughout the west.