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To freeze or not to freeze?

Cigary43

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This is always an interesting debate because it brings in peoples own experiences of freezing/non freezing and what works for them. Smoking cigars for almost 50 years and talking with those who work with cigars for a living still brings the unexpected comments. What works for some doesn't work for others and it's the experience/taste of others which usually provokes action. I've dealt with beetles in my stash...a trip to Cozumel and buying cigars there about 15 years ago really educated me as far as preparation and how to store cigars. I put the cigars I bought into my humidor with which I had about 150 cigars and wouldn't you know....they got me. I read as much as I could get my hands on about this and segregated them from the others but it was too late...the infestation was advanced and I wasn't that learned as far as how to combat it. Once I got more into the aspect of this I did freeze all of them and a month or so later when I would smoke one of the cigars I noticed a little different flavor...it wasn't overwhelming that it was bad or anything...it just tasted "different" to me.

I don't freeze at all but rather keep all "new" purchases in their own segregated humidor for 45 days. When that time has passed I then put them into another "holding" humidor ( tupperador ) for another month and then release them into a general population of where I keep cigars by brand. I have resting dates of each cigar taped around them like a cigar band so I have a history of them. Some people have tastes where they are very sensitive while others don't...just like the sense of smell. Everyone has their own way of doing things...this is just what I do.
 
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These aren't my articles, I was referring to my comments in another thread concerning the lack of science within cigars. Within that thread, it pertained to the aging and storage of cigars and the differences pertaining to their size. (ie. Do large RG cigars age better than small rg.)

Here are two articles that give you an idea how hard it is to kill the insects in their larvae stage. Either of which do not take into account the insulation that the cigar itself would create for the larvae, adding more required time. Not to mention, the problems which arise from NOT fulling killing off the larvae the first time. If you don't leave them within a deep freeze for long enough to kill them, you're actually strengthening their acclimation to extreme cold.



http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0925521491900213

http://bru.gmprc.ksu.edu/proj/iwcspp/pdf2/9/6238.pdf
Well in just browsing through the articles, I don't see how they support your contentions. They seem to do the exact opposite to me. They are about the tobacco moth, not the tobacco beetle. I'm not sure how similar those species are. The second article does mention Tobacco Beetles,

"Five days at -20 or -30 oC has been used to treat samples and manufactured tobacco resulting in 100% mortality of all stages of E. elutella and Lasioderma serricorne (ICPT, 1995). However, this prolonged exposure time may be an over-estimate of what is actually required to produce complete mortality. Unpublished information suggests the use of 48-hour exposures at –21 oC for the treatment of tobacco might suffice."

Home freezers easily hit -17 oC. So another day or two SHOULD suffice. But enough shoulding on us. The data from the experiment even states 100% mortality on eggs within 1 hour and diapausing larva within 3 days. Which would seem to disprove everything you've been espousing.

"...,however, the current experiments have shown that 24 hours at -20 oC or 3 days at -15 oC is sufficient."
 
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Well in just browsing through the articles, I don't see how they support your contentions. They seem to do the exact opposite to me. They are about the tobacco moth, not the tobacco beetle. I'm not sure how similar those species are. The second article does mention Tobacco Beetles,

"Five days at -20 or -30 oC has been used to treat samples and manufactured tobacco resulting in 100% mortality of all stages of E. elutella and Lasioderma serricorne (ICPT, 1995). However, this prolonged exposure time may be an over-estimate of what is actually required to produce complete mortality. Unpublished information suggests the use of 48-hour exposures at –21 oC for the treatment of tobacco might suffice."

Home freezers easily hit -17 oC. So another day or two SHOULD suffice. But enough shoulding on us. The data from the experiment even states 100% mortality on eggs within 1 hour and diapausing larva within 3 days. Which would seem to disprove everything you've been espousing.

"...,however, the current experiments have shown that 24 hours at -20 oC or 3 days at -15 oC is sufficient."
Read the rest of the article... some of the staged larvae require over a two weeks for 100% mortality rate. Which also doesn't take into account the insulation of a cigar and time required to bring the complete cigar down to that temperature.


Sure, if you guys want to take info on how long the bugs live during a single stage of their life when exposed to -20C without any insulation, the eggs are dead within 2 hours. It seems to me from some of the articles and posts I've read, many smokers have taken THAT information and ran with it, saying a single day would be more than enough. If it is ANY other stage of life though, all you've done is help it survive longer in cold temperatures by doing your 1-3 days stay. Hell, if it's in E50 larvae form, a week has done nothing but help the survivors grown stronger.

These are stats taken from the article, the below percentage rates are mortality rates, each percentage point refers to the days listed above. The site won't list them correctly for me. :(


7 days - 10 days - 14 days - 22 days - 27 days
Diapausing E50 - 80.8% 81.3% 95.5% 100% 100%
larvae E4P 98 - 84.2% 95% 100% 100% 100%
 
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So what does it take for the larva to diapause? Aren't these the larva that were conditioned by 5 degree decrements over a 24 hour period? Used to simulate what happens in a tobacco bale. Hardly the same as putting a cigar in the fridge - a drop of 30 degrees over much less time. I doubt the cigar really adds that much insulation and within a couple of hours the entire cigar has reached fridge temp. Then another 30 degree drop to the fridge over a couple of hours. Not nearly enough time for the larva to acclimate to the cold temperatures.

And you also posted the worst case conditions from dropping the temp to only 14 degrees F. At 5 degrees F your table looks like this:

2 days 3 days 6 days 7 days 14 days
Diapausing E50 90 98.3 100 100 100 100

Everything dead within 3 days.
 
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Wow you guys are getting too technical. Here's what's been working for me. I put all new cigars into a ziplock vacuum bags to get all the air out then wrap with Saran wrap. Straight into my -4f freezer for 3-4 days then into the refrigerator overnight. Next morning it sits on my dining room table until I return from work then goes into my humidor after quick inspection.
I let them rest for at least a month before I smoke them and I can't tell any difference in taste honestly. If it did I would stop freezing immediately and buy a temp controlled humidor.
 
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So what does it take for the larva to diapause? Aren't these the larva that were conditioned by 5 degree decrements over a 24 hour period? Used to simulate what happens in a tobacco bale. Hardly the same as putting a cigar in the fridge - a drop of 30 degrees over much less time. I doubt the cigar really adds that much insulation and within a couple of hours the entire cigar has reached fridge temp. Then another 30 degree drop to the fridge over a couple of hours. Not nearly enough time for the larva to acclimate to the cold temperatures.

And you also posted the worst case conditions from dropping the temp to only 14 degrees F. At 5 degrees F your table looks like this:

2 days 3 days 6 days 7 days 14 days
Diapausing E50 90 98.3 100 100 100 100

Everything dead within 3 days.
Correct, but as I posted earlier, ordering cigars that are infested during winter could in fact condition the bugs to the level that they did in this experiment. The chances are extremely small, but even if it's 1%, that is still a 1% chance that the bugs aren't dead. :(
 
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Wow you guys are getting too technical. Here's what's been working for me. I put all new cigars into a ziplock vacuum bags to get all the air out then wrap with Saran wrap. Straight into my -4f freezer for 3-4 days then into the refrigerator overnight. Next morning it sits on my dining room table until I return from work then goes into my humidor after quick inspection.
I let them rest for at least a month before I smoke them and I can't tell any difference in taste honestly. If it did I would stop freezing immediately and buy a temp controlled humidor.
That's pretty much what I do.

If I'm killing 98% of them and all of the eggs, that's a pretty good deal in my book.
 
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I`ve never done this before so I can`t say how it affects the taste of a smoke. I have a fairly large collection that I rotate and monitor frequently. I also like to keep my house on the cool side .Been smoking 15 years and never had a problem but never say never.
Probably just jinxed myself!!!!
 

Cigary43

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Ill try to find the article I read. someone with a very large personal stock (walk in humi at home) had an issue with beetles. They tested the freezing method and found that it wasnt really effective. Even worse if there was larva they just burrow deeper in to the center where its less cold.
The best way they found was to actually microwave boxes of cigars. It needed to be at least a box quantity otherwise sticks would dry to much and catch fire. I'll look it up and post a link.

article was on ci's 101 section. http://www.cigarsinternational.com/html/cig101_14ymt.asp
That's because 99.99% of people freezing are just wasting their time. It must either be frozen at an EXTREME level of cold, one that would require a commercial level freezer to reach, and even those often aren't designed for that. Or, they must be left within the freezer for an extended amount of time, approaching a month.

If you aren't doing one or the other of these things, then you're essentially wasting your time. Putting your cigars at 20-30 degrees below freezing for 1-7 days does next to nothing, other than put your cigars in more immediate danger than the beetle larva that may or may not be nestled within. Much like the thread from last month, where many of us pronounced our dissatisfaction with the lack of hard science concerning cigars, this is yet another facet where which ignorance reigns supreme. A statement of pronounced ignorance isn't a put down, it's a statement of fact that I said in the previously mentioned thread. There is a total lack of hard science in cigars, and the question as to whether we should "freeze or not to freeze" further demonstrates that. I listed above what would be required to be 99% sure that all larva have been killed, as you can never be 100% sure. BUT, the lack of science I speak of pertains to the damage this would do to the cigars themselves.

We go out of our way to preserve the oils within our sticks, making sure humidity is precisely measured, and watched on a daily basis. Yet, something as damaging as extreme cold is thrown into the mix and thought to have no ill effects? I'm sorry, that breaks laws of thermodynamics. Of course it has ill effects, laws of nature state there MUST be ill effects, state that there MUST be some level of damage done to the sticks. What pertains to us though, is will these ill effects affect the taste of our treasures? This is where the lack of hard information comes into play. We have articles that say yes, it does affect the taste, others say no. Hell, within this very thread we have two members that disagree. Once again, we come across something that nobody knows for sure. The sticks tasting the same after removed from the freezer means little to nothing. Will they taste the same in a year? 2 years? How about 10 years from now? Were essential oils to the aging process lost, but were undetectable while the sticks were still in their infancy? The questions go on and on and on....

I, personally, won't be putting my cigars in the freezer, for I know I'm in no way helping them, but only putting them at high risk. :(
About as concise an post on this as I've seen in a long time. I know a lot of brothers who freeze and they say they don't taste any difference...some can and I am one of them. Some of us tend to have a more sensitive taste than others...same with the sense of smell. I tend to put every cigar I buy into a humidor at 65% for 45 days just as a course of action and then I put them into a secondary humidor for a few more weeks before putting them into their general population. This ensures to me that there won't be any issues....I've had beetles before and it's always been because I bought from "sketchy" places....once I stopped that kind of dealing I've never had an issue again and this is going on 15 years. Essential oils in a cigar are very important in regards to their taste...for me it is.
 
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In my opinion there is no need at all to freeze. I would believe that would change the integrity of taste in the cigar. The only time I have ever noticed the pesky critters is if the humidity is too high in the humidor.
 

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Ill try to find the article I read. someone with a very large personal stock (walk in humi at home) had an issue with beetles. They tested the freezing method and found that it wasnt really effective. Even worse if there was larva they just burrow deeper in to the center where its less cold.
The best way they found was to actually microwave boxes of cigars. It needed to be at least a box quantity otherwise sticks would dry to much and catch fire. I'll look it up and post a link.

article was on ci's 101 section. http://www.cigarsinternational.com/html/cig101_14ymt.asp
That's because 99.99% of people freezing are just wasting their time. It must either be frozen at an EXTREME level of cold, one that would require a commercial level freezer to reach, and even those often aren't designed for that. Or, they must be left within the freezer for an extended amount of time, approaching a month.

If you aren't doing one or the other of these things, then you're essentially wasting your time. Putting your cigars at 20-30 degrees below freezing for 1-7 days does next to nothing, other than put your cigars in more immediate danger than the beetle larva that may or may not be nestled within. Much like the thread from last month, where many of us pronounced our dissatisfaction with the lack of hard science concerning cigars, this is yet another facet where which ignorance reigns supreme. A statement of pronounced ignorance isn't a put down, it's a statement of fact that I said in the previously mentioned thread. There is a total lack of hard science in cigars, and the question as to whether we should "freeze or not to freeze" further demonstrates that. I listed above what would be required to be 99% sure that all larva have been killed, as you can never be 100% sure. BUT, the lack of science I speak of pertains to the damage this would do to the cigars themselves.

We go out of our way to preserve the oils within our sticks, making sure humidity is precisely measured, and watched on a daily basis. Yet, something as damaging as extreme cold is thrown into the mix and thought to have no ill effects? I'm sorry, that breaks laws of thermodynamics. Of course it has ill effects, laws of nature state there MUST be ill effects, state that there MUST be some level of damage done to the sticks. What pertains to us though, is will these ill effects affect the taste of our treasures? This is where the lack of hard information comes into play. We have articles that say yes, it does affect the taste, others say no. Hell, within this very thread we have two members that disagree. Once again, we come across something that nobody knows for sure. The sticks tasting the same after removed from the freezer means little to nothing. Will they taste the same in a year? 2 years? How about 10 years from now? Were essential oils to the aging process lost, but were undetectable while the sticks were still in their infancy? The questions go on and on and on....

I, personally, won't be putting my cigars in the freezer, for I know I'm in no way helping them, but only putting them at high risk. :(
I know your post is meant to be helpful, and comes from a passion for cigars, but it's completely contradictory....You say that others have wasted their time by eliminating science from the mix, yet your stance is that freezing "must" be bad! I fail to see the science behind your argument. As I have said many times, I am always learning, even after 20+ years in the hobby...Show me the science/facts behind your point, as I may be completely wrong.
 
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Yeah I too have found most frozen sticks to be less flavorful. Had to find out the hard way. I say most because there have been some I froze that don't seem to have flavor loss. I froze a bunch about a month ago. I'm just going to let them rest in the humi for about 3 more months. Hopefully time will bring them all back. But I'd say just separate the suspicious cigars until your sure that they're OK. Do not freeze IMO.
 
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This reminds me of debates about motorcycle helmets. Lots of guys have their reasons why they don't wear a helmet, but you can't call the guy that does wear one stupid for doing it.

It seems verified by this thread that you can kill beetles by freezing. Weigh these experienced suggestions with the test data provided and decide what you think would be an appropriate time period for freezing, test a few by that standard, try them and determine what effect the process had by your perception. Then decide:

Do you not freeze because of your discerning palette.
Do you freeze because of your sensibility (or OCD).
Do you just pitch them all in the humidor and say "piss on it" because you have big balls.

-20°C seems to be an adequate processing temperature, and that's only -4°F. Your kitchen refrigerator/freezer should be able to attain that easily enough. You have some good seasoned suggestions regarding quarantining now, also.

P.S. I don't freeze (Reason #4: Lazy Bastard), but I do wear my helmet.
 
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