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Viaje Satori

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Just in case anyone was curious....here's the skinny on the Satori's (all come in boxes of 25):

Karma - Robusto - 5" X 52 - msrp $258.00
Nirvana - Toro - 6" X 50 - msrp $264.00
Zen - Double Ended Box Press Perfecto - 6.75" X 52 - msrp $294.00
 
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ericdriscoll

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Alot of good points in this thread.

As far as imitation can't Pete be accused of imitating Habanos? I mean Pete didn't exactly invent cigars released in jars, reservas with the 2nd band, or "regional releases".
As Pete has always stated he has without question proudly imitated Habanos designs/vitolas as he enjoys and respects CC's as bench mark cigars and began Tatuaje in this fashion. Viaje seems to be marketing in similarly like Pete although not sure how/if he acknowledges this. As I always said as long as the smokes are good I don't care. If they're not doesn't matter how you try and sell them as word gets around.
 
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This is not exclusive to cigars. Ten years ago there was no where near the amount of boutique; distillers, coffee roasters, brewers etc. I grew up in Napa and I can assure you the number of wineries has doubled since the late 80s early 90s. I believe there is a lot more passion in these boutique companies, and it is not just about turning out a profit like a Jack Daniels, Folgers or Budweiser. The people like Pete that start these companies do so out of a passion and a pursuit for perfection ensues even though they will never attain this so called perfection because they will continue to redefine their definition of perfection.
So who cares if a company other than Tatuaje is coming out with several LEs a year. A good cigar is a good cigar. In my opinion companies focusing on quality and not quantity is a good thing, and we will see more companies introducing more LEs. You just have to realize you don't have to buy them all.
 
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This is not exclusive to cigars. Ten years ago there was no where near the amount of boutique; distillers, coffee roasters, brewers etc. I grew up in Napa and I can assure you the number of wineries has doubled since the late 80s early 90s. I believe there is a lot more passion in these boutique companies, and it is not just about turning out a profit like a Jack Daniels, Folgers or Budweiser. The people like Pete that start these companies do so out of a passion and a pursuit for perfection ensues even though they will never attain this so called perfection because they will continue to redefine their definition of perfection.
So who cares if a company other than Tatuaje is coming out with several LEs a year. A good cigar is a good cigar. In my opinion companies focusing on quality and not quantity is a good thing, and we will see more companies introducing more LEs. You just have to realize you don't have to buy them all.
i agree with you on many parts...craft breweries only started to boom in the early 2000's and many things are becoming more boutique...my issue and i believe the issue with some others is someone being boutique just cause it sells...

best example: budweiser wheat beer...totally shit beer meant to be sold along side with craft and micro brewers wheat beer...budweiser themselves even said that their wheat beer was meant to turn people off of buying $10 six-packs of micro-brew...

i just get the feeling that viaje is making these limited editions just for the $$$ and promotions...this feeling comes from lack of boutique taste and feel i personally get from the majority (not all) of their limited releases.

to address brooks: sure more cigars the merrier, who would disagree with more options...i don't. i disagree with what i believe is dishonesty...why i don't enjoy rocky patel. i still smoke his new releases because of options, but that doesn't mean i like what he does all the time.

will i smoke a new viaje?...inevitable so in a trade or similar transaction i will more than likely smoke one...but smoking one of the dozen limited releases that viaje puts out this year is not what i will be looking forward to as for the friends and brothers i have outside botl, this release will be nothing more than history of a marketing scheme in cigar sales.
 

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i just get the feeling that viaje is making these limited editions just for the $$$ and promotions...this feeling comes from lack of boutique taste and feel i personally get from the majority (not all) of their limited releases.
I have to disagree about the Viaje/Tatuaje small batches being all about the money. Think about it. All the production costs for a small batch cigar are HIGHER than a regular line stick per-stick because you don’t have as big of a run to spread out the costs over. Fortunately, Pete and Andy both uses only Pepin’s factory, which helps make small batches easier.

Let's take Tatuaje as an example because I'm more familiar with those sticks--let’s take the T110 as an example. 200 boxes of 25 cigars, $9/stick. Now, the retailer makes at least 50% of that msrp (probably more like 60%, but let’s say 50% to give the benefit of the doubt). So that leaves $4.50/stick.

Now factor in shipping, customs, packaging, labels, etc. Of course, there are the bunching and rolling costs (accounting for breakage, etc), and the cost of the tobacco itself.

Let’s say out of that $4.50/stick, Pete is somehow able to squeeze out a $3/stick net profit (I don’t think it’s that high, but just for fun we’ll call it that). That means he made a net profit of $15,000 off the small batch run of the T110. That has to cover all his time in thinking it up, preliminary testing, deciding on a final blend, marketing, etc. etc.

If you think $15k is "a lot of $$$" for that, I’ve got to disagree with you. I’m not trying to pimp for Tatuaje, Viaje, or any of the others who are doing small batch stuff these days, I’m just saying that the actual profits off these things are crazy small because the number of sticks released are so small. It’s much more about creating buzz than the actual money.

jmho
--Nate
 
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I have to disagree about the Viaje/Tatuaje small batches being all about the money. Think about it. All the production costs for a small batch cigar are HIGHER than a regular line stick per-stick because you don’t have as big of a run to spread out the costs over. Fortunately, Pete and Andy both uses only Pepin’s factory, which helps make small batches easier.

Let's take Tatuaje as an example because I'm more familiar with those sticks--let’s take the T110 as an example. 200 boxes of 25 cigars, $9/stick. Now, the retailer makes at least 50% of that msrp (probably more like 60%, but let’s say 50% to give the benefit of the doubt). So that leaves $4.50/stick.

Now factor in shipping, customs, packaging, labels, etc. Of course, there are the bunching and rolling costs (accounting for breakage, etc), and the cost of the tobacco itself.

Let’s say out of that $4.50/stick, Pete is somehow able to squeeze out a $3/stick net profit (I don’t think it’s that high, but just for fun we’ll call it that). That means he made a net profit of $15,000 off the small batch run of the T110. That has to cover all his time in thinking it up, preliminary testing, deciding on a final blend, marketing, etc. etc.

If you think $15k is "a lot of $$$" for that, I’ve got to disagree with you. I’m not trying to pimp for Tatuaje, Viaje, or any of the others who are doing small batch stuff these days, I’m just saying that the actual profits off these things are crazy small because the number of sticks released are so small. It’s much more about creating buzz than the actual money.

jmho
--Nate
maybe i wasn't clear...i never mentioned tatuaje there is a different unique situation going on with pete and tatuaje that i will gladly discuss with you through pm if you so please...

now, down to business...the profit margin will be higher on a limited run then a long run for two reasons:
1. limited releases will move 200+ boxes in one day (being in the cigar business myself at one time, for a single stick to move 200 boxes in one day is a good day...much better than a signature blend) fyi, the outlaw tat didn't move 200 boxes in one month (unless you count the fact outlaw bought all the boxes.)
2. don't fool yourself, the cigar companies are making sure every penny is paid for...this is why many limited runs are "more" expensive than main lines from the same company...they include all the extra costs of blending...etc. this is why the price is higher.

get the facts on the numbers and you'll see what i mean.

(you might find a few examples where this is not true but in the majority it will always ring true...these people are in business friends or not)

i know more about business production, logistics, and marketing than anything else...anyone who is in the marketing and advertising field will tell you what viaje is doing a classic move in business to connect with customers and give them an intimate experience with their customers through their limited releases. but they will not be known as trend setters for this one and they will be riding in the wakes of other cigar companies unless they change suit. this is a fact of business. opinions aside.


oh, final note on marketing...what is brilliant, seriously brilliant is the marketing that viaje and pete does if you haven't figured it out...all either has to do is send a promo stick to a select few people that will blog about it on the internet and all the marketing is done through other people for the release...minimal costs to these companies because we market for them...look at this thread for goodness sakes...all marketing for free!
 
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njstone

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As to whether small batches are more profitable than the same quantity of a regular release--I don't have enough knowledge to dispute you. I was more talking about on the whole. If a small batch of 200 boxes only makes $15k (in my hypothetical example)--it's clearly not about the money.

I agree on the marketing stuff and the fact that the small batches are more about buzz than the actual profit from the sticks, as I said before. I also agree that this whole thing is GENIUS. It is clearly one of the reasons why Tatuaje rocketed to the Top 3 Most Popular Brands a couple years ago and has remained there--keyword being "popular."

On a side note, although I'm still very new to Viaje and have yet to try any of their LEs (and actually only one regular line so far), I do wonder if they're overdoing the LE thing just a bit. I can think of like 5-6 in the last couple months. If they're not careful, people will get burned out and stop caring.
 
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njstone, who's Andy?

If you are talking about Andre from Viaje, he uses Raices Cubanas, the same factory that Illusione, Alec Bradley,Torano and many others use.

Also, good math on the release but I made far less than that and since Schip came through, I am making even less since I never raised my prices. The T110 was actually just under 10,000 stick once we used all the bands between the two shipments. This is about promotion not making a ton of money. I only make money when I do volume.
So if I did 12 small batch releases per year at high prices, I would be making money.

You will see with Fausto that the prices will be below T110. I won't make as much per stick as the T110 but in the long run I will sell more as Fausto is a full production cigar.

Again, Small batch releases are quick money but not always big money unless you are doing multiple small batch releases at really high prices.

You will see from me, more small batch things but the prices are starting to creep lower and lower. Anarchy will be under $10. The Tatuaje HCS that I made for Holts is in the $8 to $9 range. With full production product, you will see La Casita Criolla coming in around $5 to $6.50 and Fausto coming in around $7 to $9. I basically decided to cut my margin drastically, to get the customers my products at more affordable prices on the full production product.

And, BTW, the tobacco I'm using in La Casita Criolla, we have less access to that than anything that Viaje puts in his small batch product. Most of that so called small batch tobacco is regular everyday tobacco similar to what I use in my Havana VI line.

I will end with this. Some retail pricing you see on small batch production is a reflection of many costs. Boxes and box dressing, bands(sometimes as high as 40 cents), labor to stop regular production product for only a few hundred boxes and personal time concentrating on basically a new advertisement for the bigger picture.

Thanks for letting me ramble.
 
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BTW, I'm working on something that is going to be real fun for the small group of Tatuaje loyalists. You'll see but it all involves extremely small batch production, pre-release product, swag and close communication directly to that small group.
 
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Just in case anyone was curious....here's the skinny on the Satori's (all come in boxes of 25):

Karma - Robusto - 5" X 52 - msrp $258.00
Nirvana - Toro - 6" X 50 - msrp $264.00
Zen - Double Ended Box Press Perfecto - 6.75" X 52 - msrp $294.00

Hmmm... i wonder which size i would be interested in...
 

njstone

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njstone, who's Andy?

If you are talking about Andre from Viaje, he uses Raices Cubanas, the same factory that Illusione, Alec Bradley,Torano and many others use.

Also, good math on the release but I made far less than that and since Schip came through, I am making even less since I never raised my prices. The T110 was actually just under 10,000 stick once we used all the bands between the two shipments. This is about promotion not making a ton of money. I only make money when I do volume.
So if I did 12 small batch releases per year at high prices, I would be making money.

You will see with Fausto that the prices will be below T110. I won't make as much per stick as the T110 but in the long run I will sell more as Fausto is a full production cigar.

Again, Small batch releases are quick money but not always big money unless you are doing multiple small batch releases at really high prices.

You will see from me, more small batch things but the prices are starting to creep lower and lower. Anarchy will be under $10. The Tatuaje HCS that I made for Holts is in the $8 to $9 range. With full production product, you will see La Casita Criolla coming in around $5 to $6.50 and Fausto coming in around $7 to $9. I basically decided to cut my margin drastically, to get the customers my products at more affordable prices on the full production product.

And, BTW, the tobacco I'm using in La Casita Criolla, we have less access to that than anything that Viaje puts in his small batch product. Most of that so called small batch tobacco is regular everyday tobacco similar to what I use in my Havana VI line.

I will end with this. Some retail pricing you see on small batch production is a reflection of many costs. Boxes and box dressing, bands(sometimes as high as 40 cents), labor to stop regular production product for only a few hundred boxes and personal time concentrating on basically a new advertisement for the bigger picture.

Thanks for letting me ramble.

Thanks for chiming in, Pete! And I did mean Andre: typing with auto-correct while juggling a baby is fun :)

BTW, I'd love to hear some more "rambling" on these new releases you mention here! This is the first I"m hearing of those, except the Holt's one you mentioned recently here.
 
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Very interesting thread. I need to spend more time here.

From a Retailer's perspective, I see these releases as building brand awareness for the brand owner. It is hard to see how they actually make any "real" money off 450 box releases, or 150 box releases. Think about it - how many 150 box releases do you see, oh, say, Fuente make? Zero. Because Fuente/Padron/Insert Big Manufacturer Name Here already have the brand awareness. That being said, I don't smoke too many Fuente's these days 'cause they bore me to death. The boutiques are interesting to me. That is why I devote so much time, energy, and money to obtaining/stocking/selling their products. It would be a LOT easier for me to stick with the big boys, but the smokes are just better from the small guys.

Just my .02 from a guy who litteraly can't wait to get down to N.O. to buy some of these LE's Viaje! And the new Tat stuff. And some of that totally badass La Flor product. And definitely the DPG Limitada. And...
 
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As Pete has always stated he has without question proudly imitated Habanos designs/vitolas as he enjoys and respects CC's as bench mark cigars and began Tatuaje in this fashion. Viaje seems to be marketing in similarly like Pete although not sure how/if he acknowledges this. As I always said as long as the smokes are good I don't care. If they're not doesn't matter how you try and sell them as word gets around.
No doubt and I recall him saying so many times. The reason for my statement was that the other poster was chastising Andre for copying Pete but not recognizing where Pete got some of the ideas for his earlier limited releases.

I fully agree if the smokes are good I don't care either. Now give me some of those Black CG's I saw hiding at the bottom of your cabinet.:tonguerol
 
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