Got me a new project!
- Thread starter .jacob
- Start date
Question:
How much does Spanish cedar expand when humidified and in what direction (wider or taller [with grain]. I need to know if I should cut my lining snug to fit or allow for expansion room, and if so, how much. If I allow for expansion room I think I'll put extra foam stripping wherever cedar touches cedar so it can expand and still maintain a seal.
How much does Spanish cedar expand when humidified and in what direction (wider or taller [with grain]. I need to know if I should cut my lining snug to fit or allow for expansion room, and if so, how much. If I allow for expansion room I think I'll put extra foam stripping wherever cedar touches cedar so it can expand and still maintain a seal.
Volusianator
BoM Nov '07 & Jan '09
Cedar will expand both with and across the grain, how much depends on the wood you have and the size it is. More information is really necessary to give you an approximate answer, approximate meaning nobody really knows how much it's going to move.
Size of the cedar, length, width, thickness will help.
Volusianator
BoM Nov '07 & Jan '09
Keep in mind that if you don't allow for enough movement in the wood, the wood as it expands can break the seal of your cabinet. Wood is a very tough material when it comes to expansion, it will bend steel, break glue joints and cause you headaches if not done properly.
jacob,
There are a couple of approaches you can take to conversion. If I were doing it, the first thing I would address is the door seal, since nothing else matters unless you achieve a nice fit.
There is a high probability that the door & case walls are a veneer construct-that would be in keeping with age & style of the piece. It also means it will be dimensionally stable when humidity is applied. I would suggest using a 1/4" mahogany veneer panel on the back of the door. Use a glue on edge banding or solid wood "picture frame" to treat the edges.
Then use 1/2"h x 1/2" thick spanish cedar strips, with 1/2" closed cell foam on the face to create a ledge that the door can seal against.These would be mounted to the inside perimeter of the case just kissing the door when it closes. You might test strip placement first using double stick tape, then make more permanent attachment once you are comfortable that it seals properly. A magnet upper & lower ensures contact with the foam.
The door seal pieces creates a 1/2" ledge that can hide the gap of the expansion space if you cover the walls with solid spanish cedar.One could also use the 1/4" mahogany again, which can have a nice tight fit.
Use spanish cedar for the shelves, trays, etc. add humidification & enjoy.
Very cool piece & project.
Cheers,
Bob Staebell
There are a couple of approaches you can take to conversion. If I were doing it, the first thing I would address is the door seal, since nothing else matters unless you achieve a nice fit.
There is a high probability that the door & case walls are a veneer construct-that would be in keeping with age & style of the piece. It also means it will be dimensionally stable when humidity is applied. I would suggest using a 1/4" mahogany veneer panel on the back of the door. Use a glue on edge banding or solid wood "picture frame" to treat the edges.
Then use 1/2"h x 1/2" thick spanish cedar strips, with 1/2" closed cell foam on the face to create a ledge that the door can seal against.These would be mounted to the inside perimeter of the case just kissing the door when it closes. You might test strip placement first using double stick tape, then make more permanent attachment once you are comfortable that it seals properly. A magnet upper & lower ensures contact with the foam.
The door seal pieces creates a 1/2" ledge that can hide the gap of the expansion space if you cover the walls with solid spanish cedar.One could also use the 1/4" mahogany again, which can have a nice tight fit.
Use spanish cedar for the shelves, trays, etc. add humidification & enjoy.
Very cool piece & project.
Cheers,
Bob Staebell
Thanks Bob. It's great to hear from that master.
I don't think the walls are veneer constructed. I think everything on this beast is solid. Hopefully this interior picture will shed some light on that:
Thank you for the detail on making the door plug. I'm going to make my plywood mock-up and hopefully have pictures for everyone tonight.
Cheers,
Jacob
I don't think the walls are veneer constructed. I think everything on this beast is solid. Hopefully this interior picture will shed some light on that:
Thank you for the detail on making the door plug. I'm going to make my plywood mock-up and hopefully have pictures for everyone tonight.
Cheers,
Jacob
jacob,
The close up is very helpful.
My suspicion of veneer construction lies in the use of a quartersawn bookmatched mahogany on the exterior & a plain sawn wood on the interior. If it was solid wood, the quartersawn grain would have the quite distinctive ribbon stripe seen on the exterior since both are finished. Given my guestimate of age it is probably a 3-5 ply lamination. The shelf is most likely solid. If you remove the shelf, there will be a dado groove in the side that will give a definitive answer by exposing the unfinished core.
For the purposes of converting to a humidor this is actually to your advantage, as the piece will hold up nicely when humidified.That is not always the case in older solid wood pieces. It also allows for several different approaches to conversion.
cheers,
Bob Staebell
The close up is very helpful.
My suspicion of veneer construction lies in the use of a quartersawn bookmatched mahogany on the exterior & a plain sawn wood on the interior. If it was solid wood, the quartersawn grain would have the quite distinctive ribbon stripe seen on the exterior since both are finished. Given my guestimate of age it is probably a 3-5 ply lamination. The shelf is most likely solid. If you remove the shelf, there will be a dado groove in the side that will give a definitive answer by exposing the unfinished core.
For the purposes of converting to a humidor this is actually to your advantage, as the piece will hold up nicely when humidified.That is not always the case in older solid wood pieces. It also allows for several different approaches to conversion.
cheers,
Bob Staebell
Bob, Upon closer inspection you're absolutely right, It's a solid board with veneer on both sides.
I measured out the inside and it is pretty square. Corners are nice and 90* and I took some measurements of width and height from various points and it's very consistent.
I'm glad to hear there are many different approaches to convert this bad boy because I'm not so sure about the approach I have chosen.
Basically my plan is to make an inner box like this:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/g6cr7KfKx_Tda7EXu3SHlg?feat=directlink
Which would slip into the cabinet. All 5 sides would be unattached. The two side panels have a slit in them for the shelf to fit through. Once the shelf is in place I'd insert two locking pins behind the shelf in the panel to lock it into place. Since the side panels have legs on the top and bottom front corners it would be keep the bottom and top panels secured and the back wall as well. I like this design because it allows me to securely build an inner box that in no affects the condition or integrity of the piece. The liner box would also bee fully removable. Once I've made the box out of 1/2" plywood I'd then line it with 1/4" strips of cedar which would be glued or nailed into place. The green line represents rubber stripping.
I'm not sure how I'd build the door plug you described without having to glue or nail into the original door. One thought I had would be to make the frame you described and then attach it to the door with mushroom head velcro which is much much stronger than velcro and is easy to remove from the door.
I measured out the inside and it is pretty square. Corners are nice and 90* and I took some measurements of width and height from various points and it's very consistent.
I'm glad to hear there are many different approaches to convert this bad boy because I'm not so sure about the approach I have chosen.
Basically my plan is to make an inner box like this:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/g6cr7KfKx_Tda7EXu3SHlg?feat=directlink
Which would slip into the cabinet. All 5 sides would be unattached. The two side panels have a slit in them for the shelf to fit through. Once the shelf is in place I'd insert two locking pins behind the shelf in the panel to lock it into place. Since the side panels have legs on the top and bottom front corners it would be keep the bottom and top panels secured and the back wall as well. I like this design because it allows me to securely build an inner box that in no affects the condition or integrity of the piece. The liner box would also bee fully removable. Once I've made the box out of 1/2" plywood I'd then line it with 1/4" strips of cedar which would be glued or nailed into place. The green line represents rubber stripping.
I'm not sure how I'd build the door plug you described without having to glue or nail into the original door. One thought I had would be to make the frame you described and then attach it to the door with mushroom head velcro which is much much stronger than velcro and is easy to remove from the door.
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